E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[EOengineer]

I like the irony that someday in the future maybe we’ll have the technology to approximate something that can easily be done with any 100 year old drums today.

Acoustic percussion has had centuries or longer to evolve as a technology, electronic drums around 4-5 decades at best, with the last 15 years showing tremendous advancements with VSTs and sample based systems when compared to drum machines from the 80s, for example. Early technology is often inferior to that which it aims to replicate. Ford didn't start with the mustang.

Those in this thread that point to the deficiencies with the current technology aren't wrong, at least within the context of replicating a traditional acoustic setup's sound and playing experience. That gap will gradually close until its either gone, or minuscule enough to not be a blocker for most traditional percussionists. Could be years, could be decades. We will see.

 

[metropolis_4]

Acoustic percussion has had centuries or longer to evolve as a technology, electronic drums around 4-5 decades at best, with the last 15 years showing tremendous advancements with VSTs and sample based systems when compared to drum machines from the 80s, for example. Early technology is often inferior to that which it aims to replicate. Ford didn't start with the mustang.

Those in this thread that point to the deficiencies with the current technology aren't wrong, at least within the context of replicating a traditional acoustic setup's sound and playing experience. That gap will gradually close until its either gone, or minuscule enough to not be a blocker for most traditional percussionists. Could be years, could be decades. We will see.

You’re implying that acoustic percussion is more technologically advanced and more evolved than electronic drums? And that advanced technology of acoustic drums is the reason there are things you can do on acoustic drums that you can’t do on digital?

The age of technology of acoustic percussion is irrelevant.

I could pick up a 2,000 year old tambourine and very simply play something that we don’t have the technology to allow me to play on electronic drums.

Which begs the question: what’s the point of spending so much time and resources to invent the technology to do something we can already do very easily without that technology?

 

[spawnofthesith]

The age of technology of acoustic percussion is irrelevant.

I could pick up a 2,000 year old tambourine and very simply play something that we don’t have the technology to allow me to play on electronic drums.

Which begs the question: what’s the point of spending so much time and resources to invent the technology to do something we can already do very easily without that technology?

Haven't you been paying attention? Live music has always sounded awful because of them dang acoustic drums!!

 

[metropolis_4]

Haven't you been paying attention? Live music has always sounded awful because of them dang acoustic drums!!

And apparently acoustic drums are too technologically advanced for our primitive digital technology to comprehend

 

[EOengineer]

You’re implying that acoustic percussion is more technologically advanced and more evolved than electronic drums? And that advanced technology of acoustic drums is the reason there are things you can do on acoustic drums that you can’t do on digital?

The age of technology of acoustic percussion is irrelevant.

I’m saying we’re accustomed to acoustic drums because they’ve been the norm forever.

I could pick up a 2,000 year old tambourine and very simply play something that we don’t have the technology to allow me to play on electronic drums.

Which begs the question: what’s the point of spending so much time and resources to invent the technology to do something we can already do very easily without that technology?

Because there are percussionists who are interested in technological advancement.

 

[HotRats]

I've done my share of live shows behind the mixing desk or recorded & mixed concerts and honestly bleeding in the vocals mic is not the biggest issue I've encountered.
But is there and can turn in a bigger issue and if you apply compression or effects.

But in the end, when mixing live music (for the foh or a record) you simply suck it and try to survive.

Anyway, while I agree that acoustic drums in smaller rooms are a pain in the ass from a sound engineer point of view, I also strongly believe that trying to make your band sound like a record while playing in a pub is pointless.

 

[metropolis_4]

I’m saying we’re accustomed to acoustic drums because they’ve been the norm forever.

When you say “Acoustic percussion has had centuries or longer to evolve as a technology” what do you mean? In what ways has it evolved over the centuries that relates to the ability of digital technology to replicate it?

Because there are percussionists who are interested in technological advancement.

The question for me is advancement for what means, and to what end?

I think you’ll find many more who are interested in technological advancement that can make things more convenient and introduce new options and sounds, and far less who are interested in technological advancement to provide a complex and expensive solution for something very cheap and simple that they already have.

I can buy a tambourine for $30 and it will last forever. If you’re going to convince me to spend $300 on a digital one that might be obsolete in a few years it had better offer something to justify its cost

 

[OneEng]

I can’t think of any live show I’ve ever seen in any size venue where there was so much bleed from drums or any other instruments in the vocal mics that it impacted the vocal sound FOH…

Last show I mixed the stage volume was only 5db lower than the highest point when the vocalists were singing. Most of that was the drums. This was across 4 vocal mics. This is what acoustic drums can do to the mix. Everyone is throwing around theoretical numbers. This was what I measured on the VU meters live.

Drums being louder than the singer at the singer's mic is quite unlikely.

It doesn't have to be louder. It only has to make enough noise in enough microphones that the combination turns the FOH mix into crap. This isn't that hard to do and many bands do it every week.

But in the end, when mixing live music (for the foh or a record) you simply suck it and try to survive.

.... and this is exactly what you do. You play the hand with the cards you are delt.

I greatly prefer to be delt eDrums . It isn't that you can't sound like crap with eDrums, but at least if the band has talent, it is much easier to get a good mix with it.

A good mix is worth much more than good guitar tone, or good drum tone. In fact, I place it above everything else. Even a great vocalist will sound like crap (or not be heard) if the mix is crap.

Ever seen a band with each band member bringing in 3-5K of musical equipment and all of them playing through a pair of $250 speakers? It's pretty sad.... especially for the audience.

 

[spawnofthesith]

I think this is where we differ.

Emotion in the room, feeling like you just witnessed greatness, being utterly blown away by skill, musicianship, songwriting, performance, artistry.... all of that matters soooooo much more than the live mix. I'll take a slightly bass heavy or fucked up mix, if it means I reach Godhood and Nirvana.

I don't go to watch bands to be impressed by live sound engineers. I go to watch bands to be impressed by bands.

Live sound engineers are about as important as the light-bulbs in the room.

I don't think its one or the other.

I just think the "problem" with acoustic drums is being absurdly overblown to the point where I can't take the poster seriously tbh

 

[Orvillain]

I don't think its one or the other.

I just think the "problem" with acoustic drums is being absurdly overblown to the point where I can't take the poster seriously tbh

It isn't, but if I had to pick, I'd go raw garage band that made me want to smash my face into a wall, over a bland covers band that play 80's hits for mums.

 

[DLC86]

It doesn't have to be louder. It only has to make enough noise in enough microphones that the combination turns the FOH mix into crap. This isn't that hard to do and many bands do it every week.

Saying "no one sings louder than a drum" was kinda misleading though... anyway, do you know what's picking up the most drum bleed on a stage and much more than vocal mics? Drum mics!
And guess what, the best edrums and plugins replicate that bleeding as well to make those samples sound more real, cuz we're used to it and without bleeds the drums sound too clean and clinical.

 

[OneEng]

I think this is where we differ.

Yep.

I believe that no one sounds "God like" in a crap mix and that no one in the audience will even realize they are in the presence of God because it sounds so bad.

What should have sounded inspiring to the audience sounds like a bad AM radio amplified so loud they can't stand to be in the same room with it.

A great band with a crap mix will sound like crap.

A bad band will sound like crap no matter what.

 

[OneEng]

do you know what's picking up the most drum bleed on a stage and much more than vocal mics? Drum mics!

I agree! This is why the most important tool in the mixer for acoustic drums is the gate! Keeping those mics OFF when the particular drum isn't being hit really cleans up the mix.

 

[Sascha Franck]

This is why the most important tool in the mixer for acoustic drums is the gate!

Only applies in larger venues. For smaller venues, kick, snare, overheads and perhaps hihat are all you need to mike up. And with a decent drummer and a decent sounding drumset, things will just sound fine.

 

[DLC86]

I agree! This is why the most important tool in the mixer for acoustic drums is the gate! Keeping those mics OFF when the particular drum isn't being hit really cleans up the mix.

That looks like wishful thinking... In most cases it's pretty much impossible to completely remove e.g. a hi-hat and/or kick bleed from snare mics with a simple gate, without killing the snare tail at least. Those bleeds are really as loud as the thing you want to pick up, and a gate becomes pretty much useless in that case

Maybe in a few years we'll be able to use in real time those fantastic spectral and/or AI-based gate plugins that came out recently.

 

[DrewJD82]

As an aside, with products like Superior drummer around, I think it is hard to argue that miced acoustic drums sound as good.

This is where I depart, as it's evident we do not exist in the same reality, but certainly explains the enjoyment of an ekit in a live band.

 

[metropolis_4]

Not scientific, but out of curiosity I just sat down at my acoustic drum set, set up a db meter about 15 feet away at table height.

I played at what I thought was a reasonable level that still sounded good while controlling my dynamics.

I played some Birdland and measured an average of 70db with a peak of 91db.

Played some Enter Sandman and measured avg 73db with a peak of 94db

I did this 6-7 times with different songs in different styles and consistently measured levels in the same ranges.

I’m a lot more heavy handed than some of the drummers I play with too, and those levels seem reasonable to me for most settings

 

[TSJMajesty]

And honestly, we need to start pushing back against it.

Well good luck pushing back on exponential population growth, because that's what's at the heart of the matter. Heck, 135 people were born in time it took me to type that sentence.

 

[EOengineer]

Well good luck pushing back on exponential population growth, because that's what's at the heart of the matter. Heck, 135 people were born in time it took me to type that sentence.

Drummers? Or real people?

 

[TSJMajesty]

Drummers? Or real people?

Neither.