BedroomMusic
Groupie
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If I needed to have 3 piece band, it would be drums , guitar and piano. I would trade piano for bass anytime in band settings.
Does guitar jam well with a piano?
- Thread starter bukowski
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bukowski
Roadie
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Great stuff ! Its Interesting to read from someone that's been playing since 1968 ---I hope your fingers are holding up well, I sometimes wonder how long I have left to play... (born around the time you learned cowboy chord shapes)...
For me, learning triad shapes (and I also discovered that you can use chord shapes to map chord notes) was mind blowing. My point it, that improvised playing made me eager to learn this stuff. Learning songs is good, but to me its just not that much fun.. (It can be a chore)... If I only learned songs, I probably wouldn't have as much interest..
Dam, not all teachers are good, that's a shame. Bad teacher !
Sorry to reply late, I've been running around and wanted to spend time reading your response. I really appreciate it !
jay mitchell
Shredder
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I have relatively few problems with my fretting hand. Some stretches I used to use on a regular basis have become uncomfortable in the last few years. I began working some time ago to minimize the pressure I exert to fret notes, and I think that effort has helped me avoid joint problems.
You can adapt your fingering and phrasing to accommodate limited range of joint motion, and you can go to lighter strings to reduce required pressure. So far, I've managed to continue using .013s on my archtop and .011s on my Strat, but the option to go lighter is always there.
You can do both: learn songs and use their forms - the changes and arrangements - as the basis for improvisation. FWIW, improvisation is not limited to playing solos. You can improvise while comping, an underappreciated skill set.
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I've played with a few pianists, mostly organ players. The guy I play with now uses a Nord through an active QSC.
I've done some work for a singer who played guitar as well as an electric organ. I did a couple of gigs with a cover band who had a really cool Hammond player who would play through a Marshall half Stack. We played the Madrone Art Bar in SF that had a Leslie cabinet that was a blast to experience.
My wife likes to tell people she fell for me after we had met during a party at a mutual friends house when I was checking out the instruments she owned including a classical guitar and a baby grand piano.
The host allowed me to play the guitar while she played the piano. She started playing a somber chord structure she had written and after figuring out it was in the key of A minor I improvised reactively to her playing, figured out her chords and had fun for who knows how long with my future wife standing there gushing. And idiot me, I obviously have no idea at the time.
I've done some work for a singer who played guitar as well as an electric organ. I did a couple of gigs with a cover band who had a really cool Hammond player who would play through a Marshall half Stack. We played the Madrone Art Bar in SF that had a Leslie cabinet that was a blast to experience.
My wife likes to tell people she fell for me after we had met during a party at a mutual friends house when I was checking out the instruments she owned including a classical guitar and a baby grand piano.
The host allowed me to play the guitar while she played the piano. She started playing a somber chord structure she had written and after figuring out it was in the key of A minor I improvised reactively to her playing, figured out her chords and had fun for who knows how long with my future wife standing there gushing. And idiot me, I obviously have no idea at the time.
Jazz Padd
Roadie
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This is an interesting thread, and I'm enjoying reading all the responses!
I agree, that having fun together is important, maybe even the reason for playing music. I also agree that guitar and piano can often mesh very well, with listening to and / or responding to one another.
From my limited experience, playing mostly in a jamming context, a few examples leapt to mind.
On occasion, I jam with a pianist who studied classical and can play pieces well. They learned the solfege system, while I rely mostly on the ABC system, so at first it was difficult just jamming as they were dependent on reading a score, and to move away from a score I couldn't call out notes or chords or whatever, because I don't know the solfege system. It was kind of humbling for both of us. Then we found that outside of their classical technique, they had a great ear and were very responsive and listened well. So we abandoned the scores and notes and names and syllables altogether. We had two jams, entirely improvisatory: The "black key" one and the "white key" one. There was just one rule, play only black keys or white keys. It sometimes turns out like an ambient thing, which was more fun when I added a touch of echo onto my guitar, but other times we'd get a groove going. No known songs, but somehow the tonality of the black keys reminds of pentatonic based melodies, while the white keys slipped into a kind of minor modal thing. Both were lotsa fun!
My favorite music to jam on are the old jazz standards, but that take a different kind of playing, both have to at least know the melody and how to read the changes. Another pianist, who knew very little about jazz, turned out to have a real flair for it. They could sight read the melody easier, better than me in some cases, but couldn't make sense of chord symbols like Am7 or E7, etc. So I'd write the chord tones for each on the same staff as the melody and said, in this measure any of these notes, melody or the chord tones, are fine. Just listen and follow along and let's see what happens. Using that approach, we were able to jam on Summertime and Autumn Leaves, both also very much fun.
On occasion I go to open jam sessions, where one never knows what to expect. Some times, the pianist is very busy and doesn't listen much, so in that case I take a very minimalist approach to their rather maximalist playing. It's on me to adjust, but that spontaneity is part of the fun for me, and we manage to make some music together, along with bass and drums and sometimes horns. When more experienced pianists are on stage, we have more equal roles and play off of each other, for that the advice offered in previous posts is excellent, listening and stay out of each other's way.
It's kind of endless, really, jamming or making spontaneous music, whether songs or just playing around. Whatever you end up doing with your son, have some fun and I wish you all the very best!
I agree, that having fun together is important, maybe even the reason for playing music. I also agree that guitar and piano can often mesh very well, with listening to and / or responding to one another.
From my limited experience, playing mostly in a jamming context, a few examples leapt to mind.
On occasion, I jam with a pianist who studied classical and can play pieces well. They learned the solfege system, while I rely mostly on the ABC system, so at first it was difficult just jamming as they were dependent on reading a score, and to move away from a score I couldn't call out notes or chords or whatever, because I don't know the solfege system. It was kind of humbling for both of us. Then we found that outside of their classical technique, they had a great ear and were very responsive and listened well. So we abandoned the scores and notes and names and syllables altogether. We had two jams, entirely improvisatory: The "black key" one and the "white key" one. There was just one rule, play only black keys or white keys. It sometimes turns out like an ambient thing, which was more fun when I added a touch of echo onto my guitar, but other times we'd get a groove going. No known songs, but somehow the tonality of the black keys reminds of pentatonic based melodies, while the white keys slipped into a kind of minor modal thing. Both were lotsa fun!
My favorite music to jam on are the old jazz standards, but that take a different kind of playing, both have to at least know the melody and how to read the changes. Another pianist, who knew very little about jazz, turned out to have a real flair for it. They could sight read the melody easier, better than me in some cases, but couldn't make sense of chord symbols like Am7 or E7, etc. So I'd write the chord tones for each on the same staff as the melody and said, in this measure any of these notes, melody or the chord tones, are fine. Just listen and follow along and let's see what happens. Using that approach, we were able to jam on Summertime and Autumn Leaves, both also very much fun.
On occasion I go to open jam sessions, where one never knows what to expect. Some times, the pianist is very busy and doesn't listen much, so in that case I take a very minimalist approach to their rather maximalist playing. It's on me to adjust, but that spontaneity is part of the fun for me, and we manage to make some music together, along with bass and drums and sometimes horns. When more experienced pianists are on stage, we have more equal roles and play off of each other, for that the advice offered in previous posts is excellent, listening and stay out of each other's way.
It's kind of endless, really, jamming or making spontaneous music, whether songs or just playing around. Whatever you end up doing with your son, have some fun and I wish you all the very best!
Dave Lewis
Rock Star
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Steely Dan have done quite well with piano & guitar.
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That last piece was very nice.
Metheny with Lyle Mays is another combo that worked very well.
Of course many others in jazz, blues, fusion, prog.
jay mitchell
Shredder
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That's a new one on me. Kinda asymmetric.
As well it should. The black keys form the Eb minor/ Gb major pentatonic scale.
There's the asymmetry. The white keys contain all the modes of C major, as well as three major/minor pentatonic pairs: CM/Am, FM/Dm, and GM/Em.
I share your preference. I enjoy playing newer music as well.
Yep. Reading lead sheets poses a challenge for lots of classical pianists.
That sounds like fun. How is the pianist's swing feel? Lots of classical musicians are uncomfortable swinging eighth notes and tend to play them straight.
BTDT. One option you always have in a jam is to lay out. When the piano player fills the available harmonic space entirely, that may be the best option.
One of the best piano players I know - who is also an accomplished arranger/composer with recording credits - tells guitar players up front that he doesn't want them to comp behind his solos. OTOH, he listens very well and will adjust his chord voicings to mesh with the guitar player when they are both comping. Sometimes, he'll lay out completely and let the guitar player comp.
My preference for "jamming" is to play with/over some kind of harmonic/rhythmic structure. That generally requires some common knowledge and vocabulary among the jammers. IMO making music in a group requires humility on everyone's part. You need to have respect for the music and for each other and a commitment to making a cohesive ensemble sound.
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This was one of the biggest challenges I had playing with a pianist in a band. But that's where arrangement and working out the details makes a difference, although improv/jamming you don't have that luxury so it's better to think in a minimalist way initially. A song can very quickly become a "piano" song because of the space it can take up, but of course that's also why it's the most popular solo instrument.
bukowski
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We are on the same page, and to be honest a lot of my "improvisation" is also known as noodling--... Noodling can be a bad thing is done mindlessly..You've reminded me that I need get off my lazy noodling ^%%@ and learn some songs !
If I was a guitar teacher, I would start teaching improvisation (have fun with the instrument!) along with a few simple songs..
bukowski
Roadie
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Steely Dan have done quite well with piano & guitar.
Hmm, I have every album on Vinyl from Steely Dan. I'll have to spin them up to listen. Good tip, thanks !
bukowski
Roadie
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He is a 19 and playing secretly in his room,, quite shy... I wouldn't say he has a "swing feel" yet, but I haven't played with him or listened to him play often. The music he listens to has a lot of "swing" to it ! I'm impressed at his complex musical taste.. He likes upbeat music, stuff that was probably played 30's-50's for Friday and Saturday night.... Swing music falls right into his preference... (note: I understand swing feel and swing music are different things)..... He likes swing music though.
Driving in the car with him listening to his music has made me think quite a bit. I'll be honest that big band music is not music that I listen to, but WOW, whatever they are doing is not simple music... The musicians of this time period really knew their stuff! It almost makes me ashamed of my rock and roll background...
Very cool. I'll be honest that "comping" is a new concept to me, I'll have to look it up. Remember, I'm no pro ! Just an old Dad that has been jamming for 40 years of so. Thanks, I like to learn ! I'm off to google "comping" now....
Yes, my thought was to start off with some basic I IV V's, maybe blues and see where it takes us.. I've heard some amazing blues pianists, it seems like fun to spice up basic chord progressions as a blues pianist. They sure do !
Dave Lewis
Rock Star
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Supertramp is another
Elton John’s first 5 albums.
Elton John’s first 5 albums.
Sascha Franck
Goatlord
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There's possibly more acts with guitar and piano/keys than acts with just one of the two.
The main question for me would rather be whether you can find something working in a duo context.
The main question for me would rather be whether you can find something working in a duo context.
jay mitchell
Shredder
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I posed the question to Jazz Padd. My assumption re: your teenager was that he is still deciding what he likes and wants to play most.
There's no need to feel ashamed. There are many musical universes out there, and nobody can be expected to have explored, let alone mastered, all of them. Big band music can be quite simple, BTW. Depends on the band, the tune, and the arranger. Here's a 12-bar blues in a big band format:
If you're interested in learning about the historical progression from big band/swing to rock 'n' roll, look up "jump blues" on youtube. Be forewarned, it's a rabbit hole.
It's a contraction of the word, "accompanying." It can mean as little as strumming chords and as much as composing countermelodies in real time.
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synthpenguin
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You might look into some videos on jump blues guitar. Depending on what sort of big band he's into, that could create some good common ground between that and your rock leanings :) (if you're not familiar, jump blues was sort of a smaller band format that came out of the swing era, and ended up influencing and overlapping with what became rock and r&b)
Alternatively, you could just take a straight up, much simpler swing rhythm guitar approach to give him some room to get comfortable.
There are a lot of great YouTube videos for both!
If you can get the names of some of the compositions he likes, you can probably find lead sheets to learn the chords. If you're not comfortable with extensions and stuff they might have, you can just play the basic triads to rhythm and it'll work (especially in this context)... or just fifths (power chords) on those roots even.
But also, yeah, a lot of swing stuff is at least loosely following a blues structure anyway. There are plenty of variations, but even then you can simplify it down too.
Though for something that isn't in a blues... "Flying Home" could be a really cool thing to learn. Easy to play on guitar, with enough meat for someone interested, but an easy-to-remember chord progression that can even just be played with fifths. Check out the earlier version with Charlie Christian on guitar, and the later Lionel Hampton jump blues versions (listen to the contrast in guitar between the two approaches for some ideas).
