Does anyone actually want these super tiny modelers?

[laxu]

After the Tonex One, there's been a lot of devices coming out in the same super small form factor, some with quite extensive features.

I get that they are tiny and cheap, so probably get sold a lot as Christmas gifts. Cost is likely a big draw in countries where average income is much lower like Latin America or Asia.

I get why a large Tonex can be inconvenient to cram on some pedalboards mainly to serve as amp/cab sims. But the Tonex One feels like it's too far into miniaturizing it, severely compromising its usability for smaller size.

But just making these things the size of say a Boss, Strymon/Source Audio (El Cap, Nemesis etc) pedals would already let you cram in way more controls, maybe even a small screen like the Walrus ACS1 Mk2. They'd still be compact enough to fit any pedalboard without issues.

The HX Stomp/GT-1000 Core form factor already allows for full blown touchscreen, do-it-all modelers ala Hotone. That's still tiny for what these can do, and can clearly be quite affordable, just not dirt cheap.

Does anyone actually want their modeler to have an absolute minimum number of controls and rely 99% on a mobile app? Why would you pick that over something marginally larger that offers more onboard control?

 

[mbenigni]

I agree with you overall: we've reached the point where further miniaturization no longer suits the "form factor" of the actual human beings interacting with these products (eyes and hands, primarily); nor the number of features being exposed. This is why, for instance, you saw cell phones get smaller and smaller over the course of about 20 years, and then start to get larger as a selling point instead. (See: iPhone Max Pro, etc.)

TONEX is a weird exception where the "big" one had such usability issues (at least at launch; I haven't tried one more recently) that it arguably makes more sense to buy the smaller one and ignore half the functionality, complementing it with other effects as needed.

I was obsessed with minimizing footprint for many years - a kind of game I played. But I've arrived at a "happy medium" where actual usability trumps the parlor trick of getting things done with gear that can fit on the head of a pin. I'll sooner use a QC than an HX Stomp and I'll sooner use an iPad than an iPhone, but I still put a premium on all of these solutions being highly portable.

 

[laxu]

I agree with you overall: we've reached the point where miniaturization no longer suits the form factor of the actual human beings interacting with these products. This is why, for instance, you saw cell phones get smaller and smaller over the course of about 20 years, and then start to get larger as a selling point instead (e.g. iPhone Max Pro, etc.)

Remember before smartphones when you had some companies making these absolutely tiny phones you had to hold with like two fingers? I feel like that's where we are for guitar gear.

The smartphones getting larger thing is something I truly hate because almost everything is huge these days and just uncomfortable to hold. I get why, for many it's their only computing device. I'm a bit of a dinosaur when I have a phone, tablet and computer for different uses.

TONEX is a weird exception where the "big" one had such usability issues (at least at launch; I haven't tried one more recently) that it arguably makes more sense to buy the smaller one and ignore half the functionality, complementing it with other effects as needed.

Yeah it's a "we had the hardware from the X-series pedals" project rather than something designed specifically for Tonex. Yet the Tonex One seems like getting it to its low price point was the main goal in its design, perhaps to get ahead of the Chinese manufacturers building similar things.

 

[Byrdman]

IMO, I guess it depends on the unit. If it's a "set it and forget it" the smaller the better for me. If it's a bigger more complex unit like my Stomp XL, when I need to make a preset or alter an existing one, I'm all about breaking out the computer to do all my editing and tweaks on it's editor with the computer. I really wish I had taken the time to learn how to do it on the actual unit, but I didn't so it is what it is...

That is kind of how I think of the Tonex vs Tonex One. One seems to be for more advanced use and the other smaller version is for a handful of tone captures that get used all the time with not many changes.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Unless it's FM0; absolutely not.

 

[Sedaxel]

I even think the QC is too miniaturized for what it packs. For me, a little larger form factor would have been better for THAT package.

And, if they wanted to offer an "ideal for flygigs" unit, then a less capable unit (less footswitches or I/Os, for instance) in the current QC form factor would be better, IMO.

And then, the smaller unit, the NC (which for me is perfect for the size, and hopefully will be better with some basic ipdates).

So yeah, I love mini pedals. Always did. My tubescreamer is a Joyo Grenn Legend (mini-mini-minimal size). I´ve got several Valeton Lofts (compressor, blues driver, analog delay), had the Xotic compressor (fantastic), etc. And I would see very attractive a capturing player in a mini format alas ToneX One, but having MIDI and a standardized gain system. That´s why I still prefer the NC over any other mini profilers (well, and that it has built-in capturing capabilities).

 

[laxu]

I even think the QC is too miniaturized for what it packs. For me, a little larger form factor would have been better for THAT package.

I actually feel the size is pretty spot on, but it could have had a single row of traditional encoders and then some regular footswitches. They could have used a slightly smaller touchscreen as I feel the 5" on the Hotone Ampero 2 Stage is a pretty great size for that sort of UI.

And then, the smaller unit, the NC (which for me is perfect for the size, and hopefully will be better with some basic ipdates).

I'm not a fan of the NC either because it also compromises everything for the form factor. The stupid "one effect per category only" stuff makes it a bit shit value IMO, and something NeuralDSP hopefully fixes ASAP.

The Hotone A2 Stomp is maybe 1/3 larger, yet it is functionally almost exactly like a "Dual Cortex" could have been.

So yeah, I love mini pedals. Always did. My tubescreamer is a Joyo Grenn Legend (mini-mini-minimal size). I´ve got several Valeton Lofts (compressor, blues driver, analog delay), had the Xotic compressor (fantastic), etc. And I would see very attractive a capturing player in a mini format alas ToneX One, but having MIDI and a standardized gain system. That´s why I still prefer the NC over any other mini profilers (well, and that it has built-in capturing capabilities).

The only mini pedal I own is the Keeley Compressor Mini, which is actually pretty great for that sort of utility pedal that is largely set-and-forget. Tuners, compressors, simple drives etc are fine candidates for this sort of stuff. But full blown modelers with multiple fx at once etc?

 

[mbenigni]

Just goes to show how subjective, and how much of a "Goldilocks" subject this is, that I want to Like every post in this thread, but for one comment I disagree with.

We need a "50%" emoji.

 

[mbenigni]

Unless it's FM0; absolutely not.

Zero footswitches, three pages of footswitch configuration.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Zero footswitches, three pages of footswitch configuration.

Use that software, baby!

 

[ian_dissonance]

I don’t, but also I kind of do. I have my Helix Floor and LT for performance, and I have Helix Native for recording, but something that sounds halfway decent that I can toss in the storage of a hard case for warmups or jamming with headphones away from the computer is definitely a consideration. It doesn’t even need to sound amazing, just better than the pocket POD and preferably have a BT input.

 

[mbenigni]

Use that software, baby!

Zero footswitches, three pages of footswitch configuration on a bigger screen (that you don't usually have handy.)

 

[JasonE]

For me, it really depends on the use case.

For live playing I would only use one to do what my amp does. I would only want it for amp and speaker modeling just to be able to run my pedal board direct. I couldn't use it for more than that because it would be too difficult to adjust anything like reverb or delay. If I am going direct the FM9 or Kemper Stage is a much better solution. However, I could also see one of these really small modelers being a good backup solution if your amp went down.

For home recording I could see more of a use. It could be controlled with software on the computer so it is easy to tweak and it doesn't take up much room on the desk. However, using the FM9 or Kemper Stage on the floor and running a cable to the computer gives me the same result that the micro modeler would give me and it isn't on the desk at all.

I already have the FM9 and the Kemper Stage so for me, I am not in the market for something like this. I have an Orange Micro Terror that I keep in my gear bins in case my amp has an issue. It works great and still has a tube preamp in it. If these things were available back when I bought some of the stuff I already have I may have looked at them but am not sure I would have bought one.

 

[newholland]

zero controls? not me- but a minimum is fine- tmbv would be great, but even tone and volume and gain works.

i set basically one sound and use the guitar- and if a modeler did that exceptionally well, id use it in front of a power amp no question. but hell, its hard enough to find a great analog pedal to do that, nevermind a modeler

 

[metropolis_4]

If I’m using a small modeler it means I’m using it on a pedalboard, and if I’m using a modeler on a pedalboard I’m using it as an amp. And I must have instant access to BMT and volume on my amp at gigs, so if it doesn’t have knobs for those things it’s useless to me.

I also hate mini pedals. The controls are harder to grab during a show, and they wobble around when you stomp on them.

 

[newholland]

If I’m using a small modeler it means I’m using it on a pedalboard, and if I’m using a modeler on a pedalboard I’m using it as an amp. And I must have instant access to BMT and volume on my amp at gigs, so if it doesn’t have knobs for those things it’s useless to me.

I also hate mini pedals. The controls are harder to grab during a show, and they wobble around when you stomp on them.

this totally- if a modeler did ONE thing well and faked the interaction of an amp admirably in a pedal format, id absolutely use it. i dont really need fx or lots of configuration- just good feedback from the device. if there was a box that genuinely did a hiwatt, an 800, and a bassman- and they worked with my volume knob authentically id be stoked. i havent met that thing yet in a pedal- but dont rule out it existing someday.

 

[JiveTurkey]

this totally- if a modeler did ONE thing well and faked the interaction of an amp admirably in a pedal format, id absolutely use it. i dont really need fx or lots of configuration- just good feedback from the device. if there was a box that genuinely did a hiwatt, an 800, and a bassman- and they worked with my volume knob authentically id be stoked. i havent met that thing yet in a pedal- but dont rule out it existing someday.

Careful! You're on a slippery slope NH

 

[newholland]

Careful! You're on a slippery slope NH

how so? im def. not demeaning modeling, for sure! i think things can sound pretty great nowadays, and i sure cant always bring a bigass amp if i haveta go somplace by plane but i do think modelers are great tools for guys who need tons of sounds.. im just not one of them- but that doesnt mean its not potentially super useful even to troglodytes like myself.

 

[JiveTurkey]

how so? im def. not demeaning modeling, for sure! i think things can sound pretty great nowadays, and i sure cant always bring a bigass amp if i haveta go somplace by plane but i do think modelers are great tools for guys who need tons of sounds.. im just not one of them- but that doesnt mean its not potentially super useful even to troglodytes like myself.

I'm saying once you start dipping the toes into the waters; it gets a bit GASsy and dangerous!

 

[Sedaxel]

I actually feel the size is pretty spot on, but it could have had a single row of traditional encoders and then some regular footswitches. They could have used a slightly smaller touchscreen as I feel the 5" on the Hotone Ampero 2 Stage is a pretty great size for that sort of UI.

Obviously personal tastes are what they are. I don´t agree in this. I think the form factor isn´t spot on because of footswitches being cramped. That´s why I would have prefered less switches for the same size. And then, a bigger unit for the full blown ship.

I'm not a fan of the NC either because it also compromises everything for the form factor. The stupid "one effect per category only" stuff makes it a bit shit value IMO, and something NeuralDSP hopefully fixes ASAP.

Again, I disagree. Personal tastes one more time. For some use cases, it´s perfectly fine as is. This is, for using it with other pedals while using basically captures and being small... which is the weakest point of the Ampero Stomp IMO, and that´s why I see they are different approaches for different functions. If I just need a capture, I prefer this size instead of the A2S one. And don´t need a screen to tweak BMT, gain and volume. And it´s smaller, and the footswitches are well separated (against the cramping experience of every Hotone pedal).

If I wanted an all in one unit... well, maybe even in that case I wouldn´t pick the A2S because of the lack of switches and their separation. Just the same reason I wouldn´t pick an HX Stomp as my all-in-one.

My point is... in my mind, the NC is NOT what a DualCortex should be. I perfectly see a gap between the NC and the QC to place an intermediate unit, more in the style of the Stomp (name it HX or Ampero). The NC is not designed to have all the functionality of the Stomps. If someone buys it for that, then it´s a bad buy. For my use case, it was a far better option than "stomps".

The only mini pedal I own is the Keeley Compressor Mini, which is actually pretty great for that sort of utility pedal that is largely set-and-forget. Tuners, compressors, simple drives etc are fine candidates for this sort of stuff. But full blown modelers with multiple fx at once etc?

Full blown modelers in a mini format are a delicate concept, IMO. The idea seems fine, but there are always caveats (additional gadgets interconnected, midi controllers, phones or PCs, extra cables and whatnot). It´s funny to deal with it sometimes, but at the end I guess the simplicity of an all in one (ALL, switches included) unit usually prevails.