Digital Igloo (Eric Klein, YGG)

MirrorProfiles said:
This is so close to the kind of thing I'd have in mind. Although it still sort of looks a bit Line 6-y. Which obviously makes sense given when it was made and who for, but I think if the goal was to tackle that boutique amp head buying market, IMO it would need to go another step further away from "traditional Line 6" cosmetically (different knobs, different faceplate font, different badge). I think the sort of person who is happy to spend big money on an amp wants to feel like they're getting something exclusive and unobtainable to the rest of the plebs.

I think it was so dumb of Marshall to give away the Park brand for basically nothing, as I think that would have been an awesome "custom made HW UK made" spinoff for them to use to distinguish the overpriced fancy-pants versions of amps to the "working mans" amp that I typically associate with Marshall. As a brand, I tend to think of Line 6 as affordable, available, sensible, flexible and suitable for everyone which is sort of at odds at high end gear.


Maybe the goldilocks amp would be an HX Lunchbox? Hard to think of which are the right compromises to make unless it was modular in some way. I guess some kind of Helix approved power amp with some clever impedance tech would bridge the gap nicely for a lot of people. A lot of bands I work with seem to have moved from amps to using a Helix in their backpack. I'm not sure anyone has nailed the whole modeller power amp thing, its still just the Wild West for everyone.
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@Digital Igloo has repeatedly stated a few reasons why there's no Catalyst head.

I understand that, but am still convinced it would've been awesome.

But that's just a meaningless game of woulda coulda, I guess. 🤷‍♂️
 
MirrorProfiles said:
This is so close to the kind of thing I'd have in mind. Although it still sort of looks a bit Line 6-y. Which obviously makes sense given when it was made and who for, but I think if the goal was to tackle that boutique amp head buying market, IMO it would need to go another step further away from "traditional Line 6" cosmetically (different knobs, different faceplate font, different badge). I think the sort of person who is happy to spend big money on an amp wants to feel like they're getting something exclusive and unobtainable to the rest of the plebs.
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Interesting. Other than the knob shape appearing on HD500, the only other ID/mechanical element in DT50 we'd done previously (or since!) is... use our company logo, which, y'know, we kinda have to do. Slap a Marshall or Friedman badge on it and I'm convinced 99% of random guitarists would never suspect they're playing a Line 6 amp.

Here's DT25 and its matching cab without the badges:

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Digital Igloo said:
Okay, I'll bite. What would the ultimate Line 6 guitar amp look like? And most importantly, what would you be willing to pay for it?
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Yamaha THR100HD, except with:
  • Higher power poweramp.
  • A few more amp models. Ditch the "Solid" (basic solid-state clean).
  • Better fx, including volume control for boost.
  • Replace powertube sim in the back with this being baked into the amp models.
  • Sum option for line outs so you don't get channel A from output 1 and channel B from output 2.
  • MIDI.
I have no idea what it would cost these days, but I'd probably pay what the THR100HD cost back in the day.

That amp had some really good ideas but poor execution. It made blending two amps very convenient, had per channel/per model IRs and everything.

If you want to "Line6-ify" it, it would be basically a dual identical channel Catalyst each with its own controls, with the ability to blend those channels together and a full blown stereo poweramp.
 
In the vein of what you’re talking about with the DT25 and DT50, I think upgrading the look of the Catalyst would change perceptions. When I close my eyes and play the Catalyst seems more expensive.
Personally I think it is meh looking, and it’s not rugged enough. I think taking that finicky plastic bit off the top that breaks off after 2 gigs would be a start. Would $50-$75 more give us a box that feels more sturdy?
 
Digital Igloo said:
My obvious bias aside, DT50 was an amazing sounding (and IMO, looking) amp. Its feature set—especially when paired with HD500X—was ridiculous and alone, it wasn't more difficult to use than any other dual-channel amp. Unfortunately, it didn't sell all that well, even though it was surprisingly affordable for that level of construction with a relay-controlled, configurable tube power section designed by Reinhold Bogner.

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I briefly had a DT25, and my only criticism was the disconnect between how one particular feature was marketed versus how it worked. At some point, there were lots more amp sounds made available. It was all over various websites, and it prompted me to buy.

None of the copy said you needed the HD 500 or anything to use the added amps, because you didn't, but what they didn't say was...in order to use the additional amps (assigning them to each of the 4 channels), you had to buy a USB to MIDI cable (it was easy to get the wrong one, and Line 6 didn't spec one) and use a freeware package not written or supported by Line 6. I remember calling Line 6 and having an oppressively chill dude tell me it's, like, "the Line 6 way" and stuff to have a heavily-sold feature dependent upon "community" software and support. That really got under my skin at the time. I returned the amp (couldn't return the cable) and got over it, but I think that experience has been part of my bias since.

The amp *did* sound great, and a friend kept his DT50 until not that long ago. Or maybe he still has it. It's been a while since we talked. And I'd still try a new Helix or replacement that was moderate in size with a full size interface, full features/connectivity, but no extraneous (for me) expression pedal.
 
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Digital Igloo said:
Interesting. Other than the knob shape appearing on HD500, the only other ID/mechanical element in DT50 we'd done previously (or since!) is... use our company logo, which, y'know, we kinda have to do. Slap a Marshall or Friedman badge on it and I'm convinced 99% of random guitarists would never suspect they're playing a Line 6 amp.

Here's DT25 and its matching cab without the badges:

View attachment 41870
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Maybe do a new version of the logo, something with a more old fashioned and less (no pejorative implied here) modern corporate look? Like when Peavey got away from the pointy thing for a while?
 
laxu said:
Yamaha THR100HD, except with:
  • Higher power poweramp.
  • A few more amp models. Ditch the "Solid" (basic solid-state clean).
  • Better fx, including volume control for boost.
  • Replace powertube sim in the back with this being baked into the amp models.
  • Sum option for line outs so you don't get channel A from output 1 and channel B from output 2.
  • MIDI.
I have no idea what it would cost these days, but I'd probably pay what the THR100HD cost back in the day.

That amp had some really good ideas but poor execution. It made blending two amps very convenient, had per channel/per model IRs and everything.

If you want to "Line6-ify" it, it would be basically a dual identical channel Catalyst each with its own controls, with the ability to blend those channels together and a full blown stereo poweramp.
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I like it, though I would keep the separately selectable power amp types - and I'd put that control on the front of the amp.

I'd also critically add sound storage/presets. Their demo player/rep would repeatedly say "it just makes sense!" not to have them because "it's just an amp," which was weapons grade stupid. Even something as simple as the five buttons you hold down to save a sound on the THR10 would have been better. Or just a librarian app. I've had my THR100HD for a long time, and I have pictures on my phone that I translated into a paper file that records al the great sounds I found in the amp over that period of time. It's nutty.

Oh, and they should have included USB recording, too. They put a USB port on the thing, and only enabled it for changing the reverb and boost settings and loading IRs. Such a waste.
 
Wouldn’t the ultimate HX amp include all the speaker modeling tech from the PowerCab? Those speaker models, and the entire PC line is so beyond the credit it receives.

Reminds me of when the original Segway launched. Back then, they described how it will change the way cities are planned. It was so ahead of its time. We don’t deserve nice things.

BTW, I gigged my PC+ for the first time last week. All the guitarists came up to check it and the Helix Floor out. I had the Aristocrat paired with the Herald speaker model.
 
Digital Igloo said:
Interesting. Other than the knob shape appearing on HD500, the only other ID/mechanical element in DT50 we'd done previously (or since!) is... use our company logo, which, y'know, we kinda have to do. Slap a Marshall or Friedman badge on it and I'm convinced 99% of random guitarists would never suspect they're playing a Line 6 amp.

Here's DT25 and its matching cab without the badges:

View attachment 41870
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I say this is as someone whose opinion means absolutely nothing at all, but to me it just looks nearly there. Maybe it's enough for random guitarists, but with that faceplate and knobs, I just think "Spider Valve-Pro". I like the piping and overall concept of it a lot, but I think for a hypothetical $2000-3000 amp, it would really have to separate itself from the Spiders/Flextones/Vettas etc that people unfortunately still associate with Line 6. Kind of being a victim of your own success, it can be very had to reset peoples opinions of a company. I think a new logo would probably help somewhat in getting the message that "things have changed a lot".

I actually quite like the look of the Catalyst - they look like they are a more expensive product than what they are.
 
ragingplatypi said:
In the vein of what you’re talking about with the DT25 and DT50, I think upgrading the look of the Catalyst would change perceptions. When I close my eyes and play the Catalyst seems more expensive.
Personally I think it is meh looking, and it’s not rugged enough. I think taking that finicky plastic bit off the top that breaks off after 2 gigs would be a start. Would $50-$75 more give us a box that feels more sturdy?
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$50-75 end user cost? Probably not. It's one of those things where if you're going to improve one thing, and that thing pushes you clear out of a particular price point, you should probably improve additional things and embrace a completely different price point (and perhaps pivot your marketing and/or target customer). And it's not always $100 more across the board. Sure, you have common price points of $99, $129, $149, $179, $199, $249, $299, $399, $499 and maybe $599, but after that, price perception incentivizes jumps to $749 > $799 > $999 > $1199 > $1499 > $1799 > $1999 > $2499 > $2999 and so on. So if adding a burlier cabinet, chunky switches, and steel corners won't let you hit your target profit margin at, say $599, you target $749 and figure out what else you might be able to add/improve to warrant the higher price tag. But $749 or even $799 might be perceived by the public as "Oh man, it's a more expensive Catalyst. What's the difference?" so do you say screw it, make it even better and go ham on $999 or $1199? Or a hardcore Helix Amp with all the bells and whistles at $1999 or higher? Dunno; again, there's not much in the way of $1000+ digital amps outside of ToneMaster, so <shugs>.

On the other hand, if you're pretty close to hitting your target margin at $599, you might need to remove one or two things or skimp here and there to get there. It's always a moving target with lots of healthy debate and then one day new I'm being a dipshit and starting a political thread come along and take a huge steaming :poop: on everyone's plans.

DIRTY SECRET: If a product has some weird price point like $549 or $1099, it's likely because the manufacturer fully intended—and expected—the product to be $499 or $999 (likely from conception), but was hit with one or more surprises not long before launch: Parts discontinuation, vendor bankruptcy, recalibrated run rates, unpredictable BOM hikes, necessary expensive tooling changes, compliance failure, shipping cost increases, etc.
ChordInversion said:
I had a DT25, and my only criticism was the disconnect behind how one particular feature was marketed versus how it worked. At some point, there were lots more amp sounds made available. It was all over various websites, and it prompted me to buy.

None of the copy said you needed the HD 500 or anything to use them, because you didn't, but...in order to use the additional amps (assigning them to each of the 4 channels), you had to buy a MIDI cable (it was easy to get the wrong one, and Line 6 didn't spec one) and use a freeware package not written or supported by Line 6. I remember calling Line 6 and having an oppressively chill dude tell me it's, like, the Line 6 way and stuff. That really got under my skin at the time. I returned the amp (couldn't return the cable) and got over it, but I think that experience has been part of my bias.

The amp *did* sound great, and a friend kept his DT50 until not that long ago. Or maybe he still has it. It's been a while since we talked.
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Yep. DT amps were thiiiiis close. It's one of those chicken and egg things where if it were more popular, it probably would've received more sustaining love. See also: AMPLIFi, whose numerous first-to-market features spawned the behemoth that is Positive Grid's Spark.
 
Digital Igloo said:
Yep. DT amps were thiiiiis close. It's one of those chicken and egg things where if it were more popular, it probably would've received more sustaining love. See also: AMPLIFi, whose numerous first-to-market features spawned the behemoth that is Positive Grid's Spark.
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The lesson is to push your chips in. Going in half way is no way to succeed. I was not an Amplifi fan. Looked too much like a room humidifier to me in person. IMO, it needed to be less plastic, more furniture. But you're 100% right - it probably could have found a bigger audience. A whole lot of amps, and not just Sparks, have been sold to people who had that need.
 
MirrorProfiles said:
I say this is as someone whose opinion means absolutely nothing at all, but to me it just looks nearly there. Maybe it's enough for random guitarists, but with that faceplate and knobs, I just think "Spider Valve-Pro". I like the piping and overall concept of it a lot, but I think for a hypothetical $2000-3000 amp, it would really have to separate itself from the Spiders/Flextones/Vettas etc that people unfortunately still associate with Line 6. Kind of being a victim of your own success, it can be very had to reset peoples opinions of a company. I think a new logo would probably help somewhat in getting the message that "things have changed a lot".

I actually quite like the look of the Catalyst - they look like they are a more expensive product than what they are.
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Not pushing back at all, just trying to absorb a bit more context if you don't mind.

Spider Valve (top) had a metal faceplate, like the Revv (2nd) and Friedman (3rd). DT50 (bottom) had a thick plexiglass faceplate so the active channel's tonestack labels could be backlit; is that the aesthetic concern? To my aging eyes, DT50 appears way closer to the Friedman than it does Spider Valve, logos notwithstanding. Maybe I'm missing something else?

This is an interesting conversation; thanks!
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I really loved my Vetta II HD. I know it probably wouldn't sell today but that had a killer feature set and was super easy to gig with. Pretty insane I bought that thing ~20 years ago! I suppose a Helix Rack with a Seymour Duncan PowerStage 700 gets you there but I really prefer the all-in-one head format.
 
Digital Igloo said:
What am I, chopped liver? :cool:

You mean swirly flashy TikTok videos or something?
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Please no. And definitely not random nobody bedroom dudes tone testing something for 25 seconds. I don’t even want to touch STL Tones or Mixwave stuff because of the terrible advertising on social media.
 
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