Digital Igloo (Eric Klein, YGG)

"Scrote Tote"

New HX Stomp carrybag confirmed.

So Excited Flirting GIF
 
Hey DI. I saw you posted at the other place about how accurate Helix's modeling is due to measuring constantly through the process. Is there anything stopping Line 6 from doing schematic based models? Or is it a philosophical stance? I imagine it would speed up adding models?
 
holoholo said:
Hey DI. I saw you posted at the other place about how accurate Helix's modeling is due to measuring constantly through the process. Is there anything stopping Line 6 from doing schematic based models? Or is it a philosophical stance? I imagine it would speed up adding models?
Click to expand...
The schematic-only approach doesn't account for all the non-ideal circuit behavior happening in a real amp. For example, components and traces can interact with one another depending on how they are laid out, and this can introduce parasitic elements into a circuit to affect the sound of an amp. A schematic won't show that, so they need to measure it. The "measure through the process" approach is how schematic based modeling is done when it's done well.
 
yeky83 said:
The schematic-only approach doesn't account for all the non-ideal circuit behavior happening in a real amp. For example, components and traces can interact with one another depending on how they are laid out, and this can introduce parasitic elements into a circuit to affect the sound of an amp. A schematic won't show that, so they need to measure it. The "measure through the process" approach is how schematic based modeling is done when it's done well.
Click to expand...
Oh for sure measuring everything results in superb accuracy, no doubt. Im just kind of wondering, like how we have line 6 originals, if there could be another category of models that are some sort of idealized schematic version. I’m guessing they could get churned out faster and possibly less dsp? Surely accuracy isn’t the only goal right?
 
holoholo said:
Oh for sure measuring everything results in superb accuracy, no doubt. Im just kind of wondering, like how we have line 6 originals, if there could be another category of models that are some sort of idealized schematic version. I’m guessing they could get churned out faster and possibly less dsp? Surely accuracy isn’t the only goal right?
Click to expand...
If we state a model is based on a particular amp and we're able to do it right, we'd rather do it right. Although Ben and Sam's Line 6 Original amps have been gaining in popularity lately, and there's certainly opportunity to make plenty of new originals with, say, mix-and-match gain stages, tonestacks, power amps, phase inverters, etc., the masses still demand specific amps, even if they've never played the real thing. So it's more of a public perception thing than anything else. The more demand for Line 6 Originals, the more we'll make.

It gets even weirder when Ben models real boxes that are exceedingly rare or one-offs, like his KWB Bunny distortion or Cartographer amp. Those aren't technically Line 6 Originals at all, but they're still 100% Ben.
 
Digital Igloo said:
the masses still demand specific amps, even if they've never played the real thing. So it's more of a public perception thing than anything else.
Click to expand...

That is a big part of what makes modelers appealing, "having" the amp without all the physical and financial downsides.
Another big part is a lot of music was recorded with those specific amps back when music was good.
At least that is what made me buy my Helix Floor then Native, reading online that the models were modeled form the real physical counterparts, only later I discovered how insanely versatile the platform is.

Personally speaking, I would never buy a modeler with generic models, that has zero appeal to me, that's like ZOOM territory, "British Drive" pffsh.
I don't know, maybe I'm part of a crazy minority who's buying a quality modeler for the quality models of known quality gear.
Also (not specific to Line 6), good luck selling me a 1.5-2k$ modeler with generic models... yeah, not going to happen.
 
Same here with regards to known models. Amp designers have usually spent years tinkering with circuits, going back and forth with clients, and ultimately testing what works with customers.

The amps (and gear) that gain popularity and make their way onto great recordings are the ones I’m most interested in approximating the experience of. I’m less interesting in the one off experimental amps - be it in real life or a modeller.

The DIY/custom thing is fun, but maybe more for the person designing the amp. I really love the idea of the user being able to build their own amp in an environment where they won’t get a 500VDC shock. Even if this was something that was done offline to a HW Helix and then you import it into the unit for compatibility, I’d pay money to have a “Helix Amp Toolkit” option.
 
James Freeman said:
That is a big part of what makes modelers appealing, "having" the amp without all the physical and financial downsides.
Another big part is a lot of music was recorded with those specific amps back when music was good.
Click to expand...

100% this for me. I have never played a real plexi in my life. Heck, I have played very few tube amps at all, to be honest. To me a modeler should have good simulations of the main amp categories. I'd first want a model of the real iconic amp, and then the company's take of "british" or "original" models. These latter are great to have and I indeed love and use some of them (first and foremost the Litigator), but I'd feel uneasy having the latter without the former. Call it insecurity about my ear, lack of experience, whatever ... Many of the songs I like and play have been recorded using a plexi, and there's something cozy and satisfying about loading a plexi model with a greenback cab and just banging away.
 
People have been harrassing (real) amp builders to add this and that feature, to deviate from whatever originals for ages. And for good reasons - after all, that's how plenty of now-iconic amps materialized.
With modeling, these days "amp builders" (namely the amp model coders) would have all the options in the world - but folks are asking for the umpteenth rendition of the same old boring story again and again...
Even at my age I still seem to be too progressive for this world.
 
One more word about "public perception" and models of the "real thing".
When the public learns how capable the company is in creating accurate models, and Line 6 are VERY capable, there is absolutely no excuse in creating a close-enough model or butchering a classic, none, I expect every single model to be of the highest quality and accuracy because I know how capable Line 6 are.
That also applies retrospectively, I don't want to 'fix' the old launch model myself with some EQ because I have a better reference of it like the real amp or from another company and can measure both, I want the old Helix model to be as accurate as I know Line 6 can be in 2023.

Me nagging? Well yes because I CARE.
 
I can also say, coming from no to very limited experience with the real “classic” amps (I only have owned one tube amp cab) that what I want from a modeler is

1. A collection of accurate classic amps, and here I have to put my trust in the brand, because I don’t know how a real Mesa Boogie or JCM800 really sounds except for the few music references I know. But i expect that i should be able to get in the ballpark at least for a recognizable tone/sound.

2. Innovative in-house sorcery with modeling, like Line 6 does with Litigator, Ventoux, Badonk and so on. This seems to be what I always gravitate to play with because there is a certain relief knowing that I can let go of tweaking thoughts. As soon as I pull up a model of a real amp I unintentionally start googling looking for optimal settings and whatever. This is how i I behave and it’s my own fault, but it’s easier for me to let go of tweaking habits with the in-house models. Add to that, they often sound very good regardless of where the setting end up.
 
Line 6 does a great job covering everyone’s needs. I’ve been in both camps of wanting re-creations of amps and wanting original models over the years, so it’s great to have both in one box.

My only significant learning curve with HX was that the tone stack and master controls are modeled accurately unlike every other modeler I’ve used. So to dial in tones, I’ve actually gone to the original amp manufacturer documentation or users accounts to figure things out.
 
It seems like the amps on the Helix respond more like I would expect them to with regard to how much gain they have (and when on the drive knob) when the input pad is on. I’ve heard the same from some other players.

As I understand it from what I’ve read on the forums, that’s essentially padding it down to line level. This doesn’t really make sense to me. It seems like the more accurate response would be the unpadded input signal. Are the amps that you guys modeled just gainier examples than we expect? Or is the padded input really more like plugging straight into the amp with regard to the signal level the amp model sees? Or is there something else going on here entirely?

D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top