Digital Igloo (Eric Klein, YGG)

[Digital Igloo]

Fwiw, Roland released their GS-6 (which I even bought) in 1989. Which was pretty much a digital modeling amp (in a way, even their GP-16 could be called a modeler, but it didn't have a dedicated amp section). Around the same time the Zoom 9002 came out (I only owned the 9000 - which came out later, for whatever reasons...), which could be called a sort of amp modeler, too.

If you're going to play fast and loose with "modeling" then you might as well go all the way back to the original Rockman (1982).

The very first commercial MI products to utilize digital DSP to emulate real-world analog circuits—what modeling is by definition—were the Nord Lead and Korg Prophecy synths in 1995, followed closely by the Roland JP-8000 in '96. The Yamaha VL-1 came out in '94, but that used similar-but-not-quite-the-same methodology to create physical modeling for its virtual acoustic engine.

And there were academic pursuits before that, but nothing that showed up in your local GC.

Again, the first guitar-centric product with what we know today as modeling was the Roland GP-100 (early '95), but the VG-8 (late '95) was the first one that celebrated the new technology as COSM—Composite Object Sound Modeling.

There were many boxes containing analog preamps with digital effects and/or digital control throughout the 80s and early 90s—ART, ADA, Rocktron, DigiTech, Zoom... I had an Alesis Quadraverb GT, Marshall JMP-1, and SansAmp PSA-1. None of the designers or engineers who developed any of these would ever claim they utilized any sort of "modeling."

There were also incredible rack processors throughout the 80s and 90s that found their way onto countless guitar tracks (Lexicon, Eventide, Yamaha, Korg, TC Electronic, Ensoniq, Alesis), but I didn't include them because they weren't necessarily guitar-centric products.

 

[Lysander]

I think the 1989 SansAmp deserves a passing mention. Haven’t used mine in years but it’s still tucked in its box in a drawer in the basement.

SansAmps are great, but not exactly "modeling"? Their earlier units like the now-classic GT2 were fully analog, and current products in the SansAmp still share that same DNA - with QoL improvements such as digital controls and effects on top.

Good shoutout though. Those sounds have been featured on many records and live acts, and i'm happy to see Tech21 staying relevant these days.

 

[2112]

The PSA-1 and ADA MP-1 are great examples of proto-modelers IMO

 

[Lysander]

The PSA-1 and ADA MP-1 are great examples of proto-modelers IMO

There's something about those tones which i'm still really drawn to; maybe it's the fact that Tech21 stuff was used on a lot of records i grew up with.

@Digital Igloo , any chance L6 might be interested in a GT2 model for Helix down the line? That's a family of tones which is not really well represented in modelers these days.

 

[Digital Igloo]

There's something about those tones which i'm still really drawn to; maybe it's the fact that Tech21 stuff was used on a lot of records i grew up with.

@Digital Igloo , any chance L6 might be interested in a GT2 model for Helix down the line? That's a family of tones which is not really well represented in modelers these days.

The GT2 is almost like a precursor to the Strymon Iridium. It might be odd given that it'd have multiple amp voicings within the same model (unless we split it into three models), and what to do with the mic setting?

Still, I'll add it to the queue.

 

[Lysander]

The GT2 is almost like a precursor to the Strymon Iridium.

For years i lusted after the (now defunct) Trademark 10 amp from Tech21; the thing was basically impossible to buy where i grew up. One could argue that line was the precursor to all modern modeling amps as well.

Still, I'll add it to the queue.

My man!

I just remembered that Helix already has a model for the SansAmp Bass Driver DI (ZeroAmp Bass DI), which IIRC has an simulated speaker output. No idea how it's handled on the model though.

 

[Digital Igloo]

I just remembered that Helix already has a model for the SansAmp Bass Driver DI (ZeroAmp Bass DI), which IIRC has an simulated speaker output. No idea how it's handled on the model though.

We ignore it so I guess there's a precedent for ignoring the Mic switch in a GT2 model.

 

[ragingplatypi]

For years i lusted after the (now defunct) Trademark 10 amp from Tech21; the thing was basically impossible to buy where i grew up. One could argue that line was the precursor to all modern modeling amps as well.

I still have my Trademark 10. It’s great, but I’ll trade it to you for a Catalyst :)

 

[ragingplatypi]

Hi @Digital Igloo - thanks for all your insights and being part of the community. It really means a lot.

I’m curious if you have thoughts or inside knowledge regarding the ruggedness of modeling amps. In the 1980s I had a Peavey that sounded pretty bland but could fall down a flight of concrete stairs and be nearly unscathed. Many decades later I had a Blackstar modeler that sounded great but started falling apart physically after relatively little stress.

I completely understand the value of keeping the price point low, and that amps seem to sadly have become part of the disposable culture. I see the same thing with keyboards where there is rugged high end options and cheap controllers, and little in between. Do you think there’s a way out of this or that if even matters?

 

[dronerstone]

The GT2 is almost like a precursor to the Strymon Iridium. It might be odd given that it'd have multiple amp voicings within the same model (unless we split it into three models), and what to do with the mic setting?

Still, I'll add it to the queue.

Gotta say though, I believe the OG Sansamp (RI'ed as "Classic"several times) would be even better, since it's a pretty unique sounding unit and looked upon as "the In Utero sound", among other attributes.

It would certainly need to have more than a few pages worth of parameters though (thanks to its 8 dip switches).

I have one from 1993, and I always find a way to at least approximate a drive model to that, but it'd be fun to have a dedicated model of its own.

 

[James Freeman]

I have an inquisitive question.
Has your opinion regarding captures changed in the last few months due to several new products on the market?
Line 6 is a much bigger player than any of the recent capturing offerings and it might be a low blow to Kemper.

 

[Digital Igloo]

I have an inquisitive question.
Has your opinion regarding captures changed in the last few months due to several new products on the market?
Line 6 is a much bigger player than any of the recent capturing offerings and it might be a low blow to Kemper.

Nothing's changed but clearly, I'm never as fully transparent as people think I might be. Love me a good red herring.

If there's a takeaway, it's that YGG is the opposite of a reactionary company. We plan things many years in advance and 99% of the time, stick with the original plan. Sometimes a competitor will introduce a technology, feature, or design/UI element that we had already been working on ourselves, sometimes for years (going back to the original AxSys amp in '96 when Roland's GP-100 beat us to amp modeling by several months). We may then tweak things to differentiate it more, but we won't necessarily scrap it entirely.

As for profiling, both Fractal and Line 6 have understood Kemper's technology for years—not to sit around and wait for Christoph's patent to expire, but because there may be something interesting to learn there, whether it influences entirely different features or not. Machine learning-based capture is no different.

Do I personally like that ML capture appears to be all the rage these days? Yes and no, but the no stems from how some companies still insist on feigning credit for what Kemper built. It'd be waaay cooler if they just said "Okay, yeah, we do it too now. Don't give us a cookie or nothin'." Unfortunately, the masses still eat it up—after all, too many people are perfectly fine pirating software, blindly supporting B€#®!n%€®/Mooer, and not using their #$&@ turn signals—but the notion that Line 6, Fractal, and BOSS got caught with their pants down is laughable. TH-U was the first card to fall, so a smart company would know this was coming at least a year before QC; much longer than that if you follow academia, which we do.

 

[MindCrime]

The PSA-1 and ADA MP-1 are great examples of proto-modelers IMO

I totally agree !

 

[the swede]

Eric… stop this talk about profiling. It’s not like you, you’re being scary dude…

Talk a little about Pod Go instead. Gets to little attention around here.

It seems to me, so far in its young career it has been exceptionally well received amongst the more “serious” crowd. I see it all over the places (social media) with Floors and stomps. So while the general “beginner” consumer segment may have been the main target, it has definitely hit a soft spot amongst the “prosumer” or enthusiast segment too.

In your view, is the Pod Go kinda too “big” for what it was intended to be? Or does it sit just right where it is?

I know many forum (modeler nerd) people can sometimes view the Pod Go as a crippled Helix and even bash it for that. It’s clearly a consequence of being used to Helix as a whole so even if it’s a Pod Go it is unintentionally always compared to the Helix.

In that view I personally even think that it may just be a little too good for its shoes. That’s my opinion though, and it’s not an opinion I’ve said on any forum… because most people think the other way.

 

[Digital Igloo]

It seems to me, so far in its young career it has been exceptionally well received amongst the more “serious” crowd. I see it all over the places (social media) with Floors and stomps. So while the general “beginner” consumer segment may have been the main target, it has definitely hit a soft spot amongst the “prosumer” or enthusiast segment too.

In your view, is the Pod Go kinda too “big” for what it was intended to be? Or does it sit just right where it is?

I know many forum (modeler nerd) people can sometimes view the Pod Go as a crippled Helix and even bash it for that. It’s clearly a consequence of being used to Helix as a whole so even if it’s a Pod Go it is unintentionally always compared to the Helix.

In that view I personally even think that it may just be a little too good for its shoes. That’s my opinion though, and it’s not an opinion I’ve said on any forum… because most people think the other way.

POD Go took a while to figure out because what hardware can you remove from POD HD500X to keep the price sub-$500 without upsetting those who expect the same but better for the same price? Especially when you need a bigger color screen, RGB switch LEDs, a faster processor for Helix-level amps/effects/IR loading, etc.?

So to keep everything under $500, we had to lose 4 switches, XLR outs, VDI, L6 LINK, a mic preamp, S/PDIF out, MIDI I/O, metal base chassis, dedicated tonestack knobs, dual amps, dual paths, fully dynamic DSP allocation, etc. Luckily, we were able to push the narrative of what POD Go is and more importantly, what it isn't. Had we attempted to sell it as an affordable Helix, the thing would've tanked.

Now we just gotta get the new cabs in there. We're working on it, but my guess is that Helix/HX 3.60 will drop first. That doesn't mean we're pushing POD Go work aside; just that development timelines can get slippery at times.

 

[MindCrime]

Even with all the losses, the Pod Go is still very usable at home as well as live. Paul Hindmarsh from Line 6 really knows how to get the best out of this unit. Be sure to check out John Cordy too.

I have one and I like it !

Thanks DI for the update.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

TH-U was the first card to fall, so a smart company would know this was coming at least a year before QC; much longer than that if you follow academia, which we do.

I’m no fan of TH-U and the concept overall feels wrong to me, but isn’t this an example of a customer base wanting a plugin/software version of a Kemper (which I’m sure they’re aware of), and because Kemper didn’t provide that, other companies jumped in and tried to offer something to them?

If Kemper decided to release their own plugin, would TH-U and STL Tonehub would be made somewhat redundant.

In a looser sense, is it that different from Relab doing their reverb emulation plugins?

Or going further, if customers are used to emulations of an 1176/pultec/1073/Fender Deluxe/Plexi/Vox etc from companies who had no involvement with the original circuit, are customers going to feel the same way about digital devices made into emulations? would people outside of music/recording understand the distinction? I think largely customers don’t care if it says “Marshall” or “Fender” on the emulation if they know what it’s based on.

Ultimately I think the fairest way is when some kind of licensing/royalty is sorted out, which sometimes seems to happen but usually not. Annoyingly this is all about to get a whole lot worse when people’s hard work across a whole range of things is being used to train AI, with no credit or reimbursement. I think the horse has long bolted there and it may be hard for legislation to catch up.

 

[the swede]

I’m no fan of TH-U and the concept overall feels wrong to me, but isn’t this an example of a customer base wanting a plugin/software version of a Kemper (which I’m sure they’re aware of), and because Kemper didn’t provide that, other companies jumped in and tried to offer something to them?

Overloud made the decision that they and whoever they choose would only have access to the capturing/profiling part. I didn’t have any problems with the sound of the included “demo” profiles, that would entice to go buy profile packs. But I wasn’t into the concept at all when I used TH-U, i rather used their modeling. And I just had to look at those profile shops 1 second to realize that would become a money spending rabbit hole for me. They’re kinda doing the same thing now with the Supercab… sound good, but it’s expensive. And honestly… as a hobbyist I have no idea who all those Overloud affiliates/studios that makes profiles and cabs for them are…

so yeah, I was a fan of TH-U as a mobile modeling platform (works great on mobile). But not a fan of their profile stuff. I’m not a fan of any profiling/capture thing… have no interest in it at all.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

It’s hard to quite articulate and I don’t want to purely point towards any specific company.

But say a company builds an amplifier circuit, spends years in R&D tweaking and refining it, does everything getting it to market and to customers, spends money on marketing and promotion and building the brand and desire for the product.

If another company sees this popularity and demand, studies the circuit heavily, then offers their own product which can only exist based on that circuit (and sells as a result of the demand for the original that it’s based on). This has happened constantly with real amps and pedals - but with digital emulations, companies seem to be able to get away with using the likeness of the original to sell their own unlicensed take. More often than not, it goes beyond the circuit and sound, and even borrows the visual likeness.

Neve/API/SSL etc constantly have their circuits and likeness copied by other companies - both digitally and by other companies making clones of the HW. Same goes for pedals and amps - sometimes they look extremely similar to the real thing, sometimes it’s implied by name or other clues. Certain companies only exist because they’ve been able to rely on (and build on) using the work of others, and often without licensing it officially.

I also think most users probably don’t care, and wouldn’t be willing to spend more money in order for a licenced version.

Are certain circuits/devices more precious than others?

It must infuriate Kemper to see TH-U or STL sell the products they do - but to me it seems like the sort of thing that’s gone on for years (like Marshall making their own take of a Bassman).

 

[the swede]

POD Go took a while to figure out because what hardware can you remove from POD HD500X to keep the price sub-$500 without upsetting those who expect the same but better for the same price? Especially when you need a bigger color screen, RGB switch LEDs, a faster processor for Helix-level amps/effects/IR loading, etc.?

So to keep everything under $500, we had to lose 4 switches, XLR outs, VDI, L6 LINK, a mic preamp, S/PDIF out, MIDI I/O, metal base chassis, dedicated tonestack knobs, dual amps, dual paths, fully dynamic DSP allocation, etc. Luckily, we were able to push the narrative of what POD Go is and more importantly, what it isn't. Had we attempted to sell it as an affordable Helix, the thing would've tanked.

Now we just gotta get the new cabs in there. We're working on it, but my guess is that Helix/HX 3.60 will drop first. That doesn't mean we're pushing POD Go work aside; just that development timelines can get slippery at times.

I’m definitely going to snag a Pod Go this year. Seems like a good time now that it’s been out two years. As a Stomp user (maybe I’m weird) I actually see myself enjoying a Pod Go more than the “low hanging fruit” box .
Nothing against XL, it’s a great alternative. But I strongly feel XL cemented the whole -
“You want Stomp to really be the King of your pedalboard? Get XL!”
- thing… the truly advanced big pedalboard thing. I was always one of those “ima gonna use the stomp by itself or possible just one or two external things”. But admittedly I’ve been all over the place with my Stomp.

I kinda feel I’d rather get a Pod Go instead of constantly never being able to permanently fix the Stomp in a certain way. As a homeplayer I can see myself using both. I had a flirt with MX5, a weird thing with full HR dsp but very few practical ways of using all of it, and that kinda made me think that a Go might be the sweet spot for use at home.

All in one, great sounds… now… if you’d made a Storm Trooper Go… man…