Desktop Audio Interface - UAD Apollo or something else?

[Sascha Franck]

If you are in Europe, the RME stuff is much more affordable.

Well, I planned on a 2nd hand first generation Babyface (they're quite affordable and still very, very decent, including years of driver support to come), but then I learned their Hi-Z input was only at 430kOhm. That ruled it out as I need to be able to use it just on its own on the road.
The Babyface Pro FS however is almost 4 times as much as the Motu M2 I bought. Might still be my next interface.

 

[Jarick]

I got a < $20 SPDIF to ADAT converter off Amazon to be able to run the Axe 3 in digitally. Was shocked to see it worked immediately without any issues at all. Easy to adjust the levels in console too.

 

[Jarick]

Fun use of the Apollo Twin - I listen to some podcasts that are not well produced. So I threw an LA-2A on my virtual audio bus and now I can get nice steady levels!

 

[Jarick]

Well the UAD Apollo stopped working yesterday. Possibly a bad Thunderbolt cable, because I was getting some weird digital noise when I used the same cable to connect my MOTU M4. Using a regular cable with the MOTU everything's working fine.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Thunderbolt cables can be very fussy, always worth having high quality ones and to follow the specifications for maximum lengths etc. Hopefully its an easy fix.

 

[Jarick]

Thunderbolt cables can be very fussy, always worth having high quality ones and to follow the specifications for maximum lengths etc. Hopefully its an easy fix.

If it's a bad cable I'm going to be annoyed...new cable from last fall that cost about $50.

Honestly I'm having second thoughts on the UAD in general...there's like 10-15 GB of space that the UAD stuff is taking up that I'm not using much.

 

[Jarick]

I'm experimenting with going back to the Motu M4 for a few reasons:

• Apollo goes to sleep with the computer meaning I constantly have to keep my computer awake to listen to audio coming from it (including playing guitar through a modeler)
• I've had pretty regular instances of the Apollo losing its connection after going to sleep and requiring a restart of the interface and/or computer
• I really miss the direct input vs computer mix knob to quickly adjust levels between modeler and computer
• UAD software takes up over 10GB of space on my computer (I only have 256GB on my Mac and nearly half of it is system files)
• UAD software takes up 1-1.5GB of RAM just to run in the background (I only have 8GB on my Mac)

For now I just shut down all the virtual software running in the background and using the MOTU instead. It's will say the analog volume knob does have more granularity than the digital knob of the UAD which is nice. The headphone amp is nowhere near as powerful which is interesting, I have to run it over halfway up where the UAD I only run it on about 1/4 volume on top of an internal volume pad. Generally the sound is a bit less crisp to my ears for both as well.

It's weird that modern interfaces have basically eliminated the direct blend knob. The only ones that have it are the MOTU M-series, the SSL 2/2+, and Audient ID4. All of the mid to high end interfaces all require software adjustment which is lame.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I'm experimenting with going back to the Motu M4 for a few reasons:

• Apollo goes to sleep with the computer meaning I constantly have to keep my computer awake to listen to audio coming from it (including playing guitar through a modeler)
• I've had pretty regular instances of the Apollo losing its connection after going to sleep and requiring a restart of the interface and/or computer
• I really miss the direct input vs computer mix knob to quickly adjust levels between modeler and computer
• UAD software takes up over 10GB of space on my computer (I only have 256GB on my Mac and nearly half of it is system files)
• UAD software takes up 1-1.5GB of RAM just to run in the background (I only have 8GB on my Mac)

For now I just shut down all the virtual software running in the background and using the MOTU instead. It's will say the analog volume knob does have more granularity than the digital knob of the UAD which is nice. The headphone amp is nowhere near as powerful which is interesting, I have to run it over halfway up where the UAD I only run it on about 1/4 volume on top of an internal volume pad. Generally the sound is a bit less crisp to my ears for both as well.

It's weird that modern interfaces have basically eliminated the direct blend knob. The only ones that have it are the MOTU M-series, the SSL 2/2+, and Audient ID4. All of the mid to high end interfaces all require software adjustment which is lame.

Why not remove the unnecessary plugins? I made a .txt file of the plugins I want to keep on my computer and then used a script to delete all the plugins and formats I dont need. It means after any update, I just run the script again and it's all trim and proper. ChatGPT got that one right within a pass or two. I've deleted every DSP based plugin that has been ported to native as I always just use the native option. If you dont update the UAD software too often, it's not too bad to delete things manually (especially if you only need one format).

I remember some connection issues with the Apollo and Mac, I can't remember how I specifically solved it, but it was a combination of using the right thunderbolt ports, as well as setting some permissions correctly. Maybe UA's support can help (if you haven't tried that already)?

 

[Jarick]

Why not remove the unnecessary plugins? I made a .txt file of the plugins I want to keep on my computer and then used a script to delete all the plugins and formats I dont need. It means after any update, I just run the script again and it's all trim and proper. ChatGPT got that one right within a pass or two. I've deleted every DSP based plugin that has been ported to native as I always just use the native option. If you dont update the UAD software too often, it's not too bad to delete things manually (especially if you only need one format).

I remember some connection issues with the Apollo and Mac, I can't remember how I specifically solved it, but it was a combination of using the right thunderbolt ports, as well as setting some permissions correctly. Maybe UA's support can help (if you haven't tried that already)?

I didn't know if that was an option, but that would only solve the disk space issue. The other is that UAD Console takes over 1GB of space to run.

At some point I may end up getting an M4 Mac Mini with 16GB of RAM which should solve some issues. However, I'm really not using anything in Console outside of adjusting levels of inputs vs system. And the MOTU does that right on the interface with a physical knob. So it feels like there's a lot of overhead that adds no benefit.

Also like you I really only use the Native plugins, so the Apollo hardware isn't doing much. I did mess around with a bunch of different channel strips and preamps but for electric guitar it doesn't seem necessary or impactful.

I really don't think the UAD stuff is bad by any stretch, but it may just be overkill or unnecessary for what I need.

 

[Jarick]

I wonder if the headphone amps on these small units that are bus powered are all going to be underwhelming? The headphone volume on my modelers is always really strong, like the Fractal I have to run it no more than at 9:00, same with the Kemper Player I had. MOTU I'm running halfway up which is high for me as I listen at pretty low volumes.

At some point it would be interesting to try the RME Babyface Pro as I hear nothing but good things, and I think you can set up input monitoring levels right from the unit. But probably not necessary at all for me.

 

[laxu]

I wonder if the headphone amps on these small units that are bus powered are all going to be underwhelming? The headphone volume on my modelers is always really strong, like the Fractal I have to run it no more than at 9:00, same with the Kemper Player I had. MOTU I'm running halfway up which is high for me as I listen at pretty low volumes.

At some point it would be interesting to try the RME Babyface Pro as I hear nothing but good things, and I think you can set up input monitoring levels right from the unit. But probably not necessary at all for me.

Julian Krause's audio interface reviews on YouTube are a great source as they have quite detailed info about the headphone outputs and there are differences even between generations of the same range from the same manufacturer.

It will depend on a number of factors. Headphone impedance, the audio interface in question and how loud you want to go. Some headphone amps are designed to drive a particular impedance range so they might work poorly with very low impedance headphones, or they might not get loud enough with very high impedance headphones.

Note that volume knob positions mean nothing as they can have very different tapers. For example my Audient EVO8's "output level 50%" as reported by the operating system shows up as 1/3 way up in the Audient mixer and hardware. So the other 50% is mapped to 2/3 of the knob's travel.

Several years back I compared the Fractal FM3, an old 1980s Marantz stereo amp and the (mains powered) Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen for headphone outputs. I used the 300 ohm Sennheiser HD6XX headphones, so a fairly tough thing to drive.

The FM3 and Marantz were about the same - capable of going way louder than I'd ever want and both sounded great. The Focusrite could not reach volumes like that, but it still got plenty loud. I didn't notice any particularly relevant difference in the output sound though. Similarly Focusrite vs my bus-powered Audient EVO 8 seem about the same. Focusrite might've gotten louder.

 

[Elf]

... I’d swerve the Behringturd ADA8200, the preamps sound ok but it’s noisy and not high quality.

I need more analog inputs and tried the ADA820 I returned, I could hear the difference to my 22 year old Metric Halo ULN-2 that is slowly dying.

Edit. Just noticed that I quoted a post from 2024

 

[JJTheCityKids]

I am definitely an SSL guy, but I just like the tone, and simplicity of it. Been using them for years, and, the SSL2+ for the last couple years, and easy to throw in a bag!

 

[Someoldqueenorother]

I wonder if the headphone amps on these small units that are bus powered are all going to be underwhelming? The headphone volume on my modelers is always really strong, like the Fractal I have to run it no more than at 9:00, same with the Kemper Player I had. MOTU I'm running halfway up which is high for me as I listen at pretty low volumes.

At some point it would be interesting to try the RME Babyface Pro as I hear nothing but good things, and I think you can set up input monitoring levels right from the unit. But probably not necessary at all for me.

Re. headphones: I really don't think you're going to be losing much if anything in audio quality based on my experiences with the FM3, MOTU M4, and various other interfaces from cheapies to RME UCXII.

If the Apollo and UAD approach feels like overkill, then I suspect you'd feel the same about Totalmix on the RME BFP. I've had a lot of RME gear and it sounds superb. However for my user case, I really don't need a £1000 audio interface. For what the MOTU M4 cost me and for what it delivers, it is a very good interface.

 

[Jarick]

Re. headphones: I really don't think you're going to be losing much if anything in audio quality based on my experiences with the FM3, MOTU M4, and various other interfaces from cheapies to RME UCXII.

If the Apollo and UAD approach feels like overkill, then I suspect you'd feel the same about Totalmix on the RME BFP. I've had a lot of RME gear and it sounds superb. However for my user case, I really don't need a £1000 audio interface. For what the MOTU M4 cost me and for what it delivers, it is a very good interface.

I've been flipping between the Apollo Twin and MOTU M4 the last couple days trying to troubleshoot some noise issues. One thing I noticed is the Apollo offers SIGNIFICANTLY more power to high impedance headphones. With my Sennheiser HD600 I need to turn the MOTU up about 80% of max volume where the Apollo I only need to use about 30%. I looked up the specs and sure enough the Apollo offers 96 mW of power at 300 ohms compared to 18 mW for the MOTU. Sonically the Apollo sounds a bit fuller at those volumes where the MOTU sounds a bit thinner.

 

[Someoldqueenorother]

I've been flipping between the Apollo Twin and MOTU M4 the last couple days trying to troubleshoot some noise issues. One thing I noticed is the Apollo offers SIGNIFICANTLY more power to high impedance headphones. With my Sennheiser HD600 I need to turn the MOTU up about 80% of max volume where the Apollo I only need to use about 30%. I looked up the specs and sure enough the Apollo offers 96 mW of power at 300 ohms compared to 18 mW for the MOTU. Sonically the Apollo sounds a bit fuller at those volumes where the MOTU sounds a bit thinner.

I don't doubt it. I've found the same going between my M50X and Beyer cans (higher impedance) using different interfaces. If headphones are in regular use, then the BFP Pro will offer more than the MOTU M4 in terms of headphone output. Actual conversion quality, the gap could be somewhat smaller.

 

[Solarflares]

I’d never use anything UAD again, after their attitude to me with a faulty OX-box.
Piece of junk.
Their lethargy in updating drivers for Mac OS is pitiful.
The Motu M4 is a good unit, although the ESS Sabre chips are a bit forward, but that’s ok.
For headphones like Beyer DT, or Sennheisers- you should really have a quality headphone amp, like the Beyer A20.
(The HD600 and A20 is an incredible match, and the A20 makes DT880’s sound much better than they should)
My Bryston BP6 pre-amp has great output on headphones. My Motu M4 does not. You’d think that you might be able to live with it maybe?
But the M4 was weedy and thin. The Bryston was much fuller and authorative.
But adding a Beyer A20 amp, showed that all along in both, there had been a hole in the middle of the image, and that panning on headphones would have been impossible to implement accurately without it.

The newer RME API Pro has a very good dedicated headphone amp, but is £1500.
For that money, I would want varied digital connectivity, like S/PDIF and AES/ABU, together with USB.
Too expensive for most people, even though it has good AKM chips and useful DSP.

I bought a Bryston BDA-2 DAC and now output to that from my Mac. It has the AKM chips like the API.
So I have reverted back to my older Motu Ultralight mk3 for inputting audio, on which I use the S/PDIF out straight to the Bryston DAC’s converters. Latency is still 1.1ms at 96Khz with 128 samples, with a Mac Mini M4.

The Motu M4 requires a USB2 audio cable, with USB-C connectors. Not a Thunderbolt cable.
Best audio bargain is the standard Supra USB-C 1.5m, at £40. Nice balanced sound.
I do use a £300 DH LABS Mirage 1.5m USB-C to USB-B cable from Mac to Bryston DAC direct - and really love it. But then my reference system is capable of showing up the minute differences.

With the Ultralight mk3 S/PDIF into the Bryston DAC, using a Van Damme copper 3m S/PDIF cable, I sense a tiny bit of smearing on busy hi-hats occasionally. Not so with the DH Labs cable and straight USB connection.

If you can live without digital connectivity - the Motu M4 and a Beyer A20 headphone amp is the bare minimum for decent DAW audio-input, and a decent level of monitoring.

The Bryston BDA-2 has a wonderfully transparent sound, like all their gear. But it is implemented to be slightly laid-back in it’s converters. This is really great when manipulating subtle space and depth in mixes.
The more forward ESS Sabre chipped DACs, tend to not allow for such nuance.
The RME API is forward, even with its AKM chips, and for anyone mainly composing and mixing in DAW, I would definitely recommend buying a Bryston BDA-2, and using a lesser ADC as an input device for analogue to DAW.