Are Sennheiser HD 660 S 'phones any good for modellers?

[jellodog]

More specifically, I'm looking for fairly flat and un-hyped for use with an FM3 and other modellers.

There's a decent limited-time deal (allegedly!) on Amazon Canada right now for the HD 660 S.

I'm looking for mid-priced open-back headphones. I have a pair of closed back BeyerDynamic DT 770 Pro, which are okay, I suppose. They get hot with the closed backs and are somewhat bright and fatiguing; curly cable is also super annoying when playing guitar. I mostly use real cabs in the room, but I'd like the option for headphones occasionally.

I'm not looking for perfect audiophile grade stuff. But neither do I want to be buying crap. I'd like "good enough" at the price point.

 

[fretworn]

You will have to try them for yourselves. Headphones are so personal. I’ve owned probably 2 dozen pair easily… Just for the studio.

Not what you’re looking for… But the best pair I ever owned was a pair of electrostatic Stax headphones. I should’ve never sold them. Not super loud - but pristine.

 

[jellodog]

That's a good answer @fretworn .

Deep down, I guess I knew that this was true all along.... le sigh.

 

[fretworn]

If I have to wear a pair of headphones now, I bought a pair of blue MoFi 5 yrs ago that work pretty well for me. But it’s rare for me these days to wear phones while playing.

(They are a bit heavy and clamp too hard. )

 

[Digital Igloo]

Haven't tried the HD 660s, but I greatly prefer the HD 600s over the HD 650s. Cheaper too.

 

[TSJMajesty]

You will have to try them for yourselves. Headphones are so personal.

Agree with this. I'd pick 3 pairs you like and think would be good choices, try them, and send 2 back. Assuming the 3rd one works for you.

 

[TravisG406]

The Slate VSX phones are pretty flat on their own, but super flat with the VSX plugin. I love them

 

[Jarick]

Any of the Sennheiser 600 series should be good choices, but I'd rather take the HD600 or HD650 over the HD660. And the HD6xx from Drop.com is always going to be the best value.

There's basically three headphones in the line:

• HD600 is the original and is the flattest. There's a little bit of a treble roll-off as is common with Sennheisers, and there's not a ton of bass again common with open ear headphones. Usually you can find these for $400 new.
• HD650 is a tweaked version of the HD600 with a little bit of a bass boost, but still fairly flat. These are also $400 new, but they are also sold at Drop.com for around $220 as the HD6xx. Same drivers, quality, design, etc but the darkest shade of blue instead of black.
• HD660 is a tweaked version of the HD650 with a dip in the treble, and that's the one you're looking at which is $300.

Here are the differences graphed out:

HD600 = Purple
HD650 = HD6xx = Orange
HD660 = Teal

So you can see there's basically a 1.5 dB boost in the lows from the 600 to the 650/660, and a 3 dB dip in the highs from the 600/650 to the 660.

Anyways, I've had the HD6xx for a few years and I really like them. I wish they were a touch brighter, but for guitar you may want a little less treble. When I moved houses and moved into a big room with lots of reflections, I switched over to closed back headphones because it was so noisy. But I moved back into a small room with much more sound absorption, and now I can use the open back headphones again.

The HD600 series are somewhat high impedance around 300 ohms I believe, but I've never had an issue driving them. I never really go above halfway on any device.

 

[jellodog]

@Jarick Hmmm yeah, I'd definitely prefer less bright for guitar. I can also add EQ correction in the modeller from https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq , but I was hoping to start with a hardware response from the headphones that's already closer to the ideal.

Looking at your posted curves, it's looking like the HD 660 S is probably not what I want, after all, and that I might prefer the HD 600.

I appreciate that @Digital Igloo has been singing the praises of the HD 600 for sometime. The price is less attractive to me, though. Perhaps I'll just have to bite the bullet on that.

Unfortunately, a lot of prices are either jacked up more in Canada compared to the US and EU (or else there is less consumer choice here). On the plus side, at least it's not as bad as Australian prices and choice (I've lived there too). I feel for Leon.

 

[jellodog]

In some ways, I suppose this is a lot like buying guitar cab speakers - there's only so much you can tell from online frequency response curves and ultimately you just have to try them.

 

[Jarick]

@Jarick Hmmm yeah, I'd definitely prefer less bright. I can also add EQ correction in the modeller from https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq , but I was hoping to start with a hardware response from the headphones that's already closer to the ideal.

Looking at your posted curves, it's looking like the HD 660 S is the opposite of what I want.

I appreciate that @Digital Igloo has been singing the praises of the HD 600 for sometime. The price is less attractive to me, though. Perhaps I'll just have to bite the bullet on that.

Unfortunately, a lot of prices are either jacked up more in Canada compared to the US and EU (or else there is less consumer choice here). On the plus side, at least it's not as bad as Australian prices and choice (I've lived there too). I feel for Leon.

I've got the Beyer 770 Pros as well and can guarantee none of the Sennheisers will be anywhere close to that bright. I think the 660 would be a little too dark sounding. The 600 and 650 (same as the 6xx) should be very close.

Here's the same reviewer's capture of the 770 Pro:

I don't know if Drop ships to Canada or what the price is, but the HD 6xx increased in price from $200 to $220 to $280, but is currently on sale for $220. It's a great value compared to $400 new.

Another couple options for more budget friendly,

Drop does another headphone called the HD 58x which is a budget version of the 6__ series. There's more of a bass boost on the HD 58x and the treble isn't as detailed, but it's still a good fairly flat headphone for the money. I had one before my 6xx and can attest, it's got a little more warmth in the sound and as much detail. I had the money so I sprang for the 6xx.

A comparison between the HD 58x (Green) and the HD 600 (Purple):

Another option if you don't need open back is the Rode NTH-100, which should still be $150 new off Amazon. I got a pair this summer and really like them, and sold off a bunch of other headphones. They are fairly neutral with a little bit of a rolled off high end but not too bad. They are closed back so will seal outside noise much more. But they are actually pretty comfortable and have this cooling gel in the pads to keep from overheating. I found them to be very good for playing guitar as they roll off in high frequencies which are fatiguing for the ears.

Here's a comparison to the HD 650 (6xx). You can see they are in the same ballpark tonally:

 

[Jarick]

In some ways, I suppose this is a lot like buying guitar cab speakers - there's only so much you can tell from online frequency response curves and ultimately you just have to try them.

That's true. Two things that help...find a site that does good measurements, and compare against what you have or know. That will give you a good idea of how they may sound. DIY Audio Heaven, RTings, and a few others out there. The second is to look for what has a good reputation, especially at places like Reddit. Some headphones are almost universally loved (Sennheiser), some are very hit or miss.

Also, Amazon has a good return policy...just saying.

I'm a certified headphone junkie, or was until my tinnitus got worse (unrelated to headphones...ALWAYS WEAR EARPLUGS AT CONCERTS). So I've tried just about everything and can give feedback.

 

[jellodog]

@Jarick Thanks for all the info and suggestions. It's great being able to access the wisdom and experience of a true headphone junkie here! I'll dig into this later and have decided not to rush things this week, just because Amazon is baiting me with a discount.

I have to be careful with too much brightness triggering a tinnitus flare-up too. That's one of the reasons that I love the WGS G12C/S in my cab - It's full and even, but more importantly, it's not overly spiky like your average Jensen; which tends to trigger me.

 

[the swede]

Ive been using the Send HD600 for a few years now, and they basically live on my head. I did use closed back Beyers when I started using Helix, but they were kind of fatiguing on my ears, and I also discovered that the 770's I had actually bumped the highs or presence. (just like above graphs may indicate) Actually had a hard time adjusting to the Helix the first year because of that (coming from amp and pedals).

The Senns have translated much better for me, when it comes to recording and listening back on other stuff (plugs, speakers, monitors).

Headsup.
The thing about open headphones that I first had to get used to was the leakage in. String sound for example. Its very tempting to raise volume to much because of this. Depending on how heavy handed you are, this can be a problem. My general usage, sitting in the living room and playing through my Stomp, witch children running around, wife talking on the phone, tv sounds etc etc... I haven't found it difficult. I tend to be thoughtful about volume constantly. For me, its just when the sound in the headphones drowns out my normal strumming, that's where the volume should be. Doing single note licks on the treble strings will pierce through though.

The leakage out doesn't seem to bother anyone at home. Not even when wife wants to watch tv and kids are sleeping. She tells me she can hear when I use delays and effects, but it doesn't bother.

Edit: its really nice also that I can hear everyone at home if they're in other rooms, while still playing guitar... if somethings up, I stop my playing and dont have to take the headphones off to listen to whatever is happening.

 

[jellodog]

Ooh. It looks like Drop does indeed ship to Canada and the shipping charges look to be very reasonable.

This could be life-altering!

Um... "in good way".

 

[Jarick]

Yeah if you can spring for the 6xx on Drop, that's a good investment. They are basically lifetime headphones. The only potential upgrades from that point are $1000+ and nobody's doing that. Otherwise the 58x are also very good headphones, but if you're like me you'll be eyeing that $70 upgrade (which used to be $50 and sometimes is $100 with inflation).

I hadn't been using my Sennheisers for a while but when I had the tinnitus spike a few months back, I started using them again. The ambient sound of my house helps to avoid focusing on it, and the calmer treble and bass compared to most closed backs helped prevent more spikes.

Side note, the tinnitus spike was horrible for a few weeks, then very bothersome for several more weeks, but has calmed down quite a bit the last couple weeks. Getting on anti-anxiety meds helped quite a bit to keep from focusing on it. Now my brain has tuned it back out of my consciousness for 90% of the day again, I'm sleeping well, and my anxiety is back down to very low levels.

Also, I got my hearing tested again and there's no change from previously and no hearing loss detected. Both my ENT and audiologist were supportive and insisted that audio trauma (I got the spike from a loud concert) could take up to a year to heal, and that the tinnitus should continue to improve over that stretch. Quality of life is definitely much better than it was before and I expect to continue to improve.

However, I have made some changes...before I was playing guitar in closed back headphones (at low volumes) 99% of the time. Now I am not using closed back headphones at all anymore, and invested a good $1000 in upgrading my studio monitors (Genelec 8020). I'm now doing a 50/50 split of playing through the Sennheiser open back headphones and playing through monitor speakers. Also, I used to use noise canceling headphones throughout the day for work calls, podcasts, music, etc. I've switched to using a speakerphone for work and using cheap on-ear headphones (that don't block noise) for podcasts and videos, if I'm not using my monitor speakers.

Basically, I'm shifting away from using closed back and noise canceling headphones to using open back/on ear headphones and speakers. Again, I expect the ringing to continue lowering over time as well as my brain to continue tuning it out.

All that to say, hang in there if you have tinnitus and these are positive changes!

 

[jellodog]

@Jarick Thanks! A lot of your experience sounds very familiar to me. I'm mostly okay with my tinnitus, just as long as I avoid the bright, strident flare-up triggers that I'm aware of, and yes those closed back DT 770s don't help in that regard.

Which leads me to believe that the Sennheiser open back headphones that have worked for you may well be better for me too.

 

[bigcupholder]

I haven't tried the Sennheiser HD 600 or 650 but the 599 is pretty flat from what I've read about it and I can say from experience that it's very comfortable. Maybe consider that as a cheaper option.


According to rtings.com the 599 is a little more hyped in the upper bass (100-300 Hz) and a little subdued around the upper mids (~2 KHz) but otherwise not far off.

Headphones - 1.5 - Graph

www.rtings.com

 

[SwirlyMaple]

I've never found a pair of headphones that beats the HD600, for my tastes. They are a standard by which other headphones are compared. That's not to say they are the very best headphone ever made, but they are so universally used and preferred that they are treated as a benchmark.

They have a nice open soundstage due to their large, open-back cans, no harsh or fatiguing over-hyped frequencies, and just a very pleasing sonic representation across the spectrum.

One minor caveat with the HD600 is that you can get them pretty loud from low-output devices like smartphones, but the punchiness of the bass response can suffer despite them being loud in the higher frequencies. Some phones might be capable of driving them adequately nowadays. I just know that years ago, running them from my laptop's built-in soundcard did not sound as good as running them from dedicated interface with a quality headphone amp. (The headphone output in my Helix Floor drives them wonderfully.)

There are other headphones that might make you go "wow!" when you first put them on, but those tend to have overemphasized treble and/or bass peaks, which quickly becomes tiring to the ears. I'm looking at you, Beyerdynamic!

 

[Jarick]

I've never found a pair of headphones that beats the HD600, for my tastes. They are a standard by which other headphones are compared. That's not to say they are the very best headphone ever made, but they are so universally used and preferred that they are treated as a benchmark.

They have a nice open soundstage due to their large, open-back cans, no harsh or fatiguing over-hyped frequencies, and just a very pleasing sonic representation across the spectrum.

One minor caveat with the HD600 is that you can get them pretty loud from low-output devices like smartphones, but the punchiness of the bass response can suffer despite them being loud in the higher frequencies. Some phones might be capable of driving them adequately nowadays. I just know that years ago, running them from my laptop's built-in soundcard did not sound as good as running them from dedicated interface with a quality headphone amp. (The headphone output in my Helix Floor drives them wonderfully.)

There are other headphones that might make you go "wow!" when you first put them on, but those tend to have overemphasized treble and/or bass peaks, which quickly becomes tiring to the ears. I'm looking at you, Beyerdynamic!

If I were using them exclusively with things like my iPad, I'd go with the HD58x. It's easier to drive and is a little more punchy sounding.

I tried a dedicated external headphone amp (Schiit Magni 3), and that was nice for good volume control and clean power, but sonically it wasn't that much different than using a headphone output from a decent interface or modeler. I just prefer the convenience of that over having the best sound humanly possible (not to mention my ears have a lot of wear and tear on them).

I've said before, but right now I'm using the Yamaha AG03 USB mixer. Again it's not the best solution in the world, but it has some really nice features:

• Connections are near the back, which I prefer instead of having them on the front and cables going across my desk.
• Balanced monitor outputs which is required for good studio monitors.
• Stereo line input which I use for my modeler, and I don't have to worry about matching L/R levels.
• Aux input which is nice for using with an iPad. I keep that setup when I'm working so I can listen to music or watch videos.
• Headphone output, and the amp does just fine driving my 300 ohm Sennheisers or 250 ohm Beyers.
• Separate ANALOG knobs for line input (modeler), computer audio, monitor volume, and headphone volume. This is such a nice thing to have compared to more stripped down interfaces. Some of those will have a direct input vs computer audio blend, which is okay but then if you want to bump up the level of the guitar, you have to adjust the balance then the output level. Or if there's a shared monitor/headphone output level, you are constantly plugging in and unplugging headphones.