.

Thanks this is really helpful. In searching for Kempers, I saw that Kempers were called "profilers", and other brands were called "modelers". What are the major differences between profilers and modelers? Can a modeler do most of what a profiler can, and vice versa? A short synopsis is fine as I probly don't have the experience to understand a complex in depth explanation.
Cheers,
Magoo
They both achieve a reproduction of what a real tube amp is doing, but they go about it differently.

A profiler (or capture), uses a microphone (one or more) and a test signal into the amp (Provide a known input, then measure the output of the speaker) to listen to how an amp behaves under different frequencies and at different volume level inputs. The profiler then knows how the amp behaves and duplicates this behavior when you play that patch with your own guitar.

A modeler attempts to match the behavior of the circuitry inside an amp with software simulations of what those circuits would do to the input signal.

They seem to be a world apart in approaches, but in fact all profilers/capture devices have models to modify the capture (the above post is incorrect that a profiler can only reproduce exactly the settings of the amp it was captured at). Some do it better or worse than others. The Kemper has been around quite some time, so it has gotten pretty good at capturing an amp, and providing controls to modify it after the fact as well. Older versions of the firmware did not allow as good of refinement of a profile/capture. This meant that you had to find someone that made a good capture of your VOX AC30 at or near the gain and eq that you wanted or it didn't work as well. This has been addressed and it works pretty slick now.

Modelers have the issue that they don't even attempt to "capture" an amp. They try to simulate what its circuit is doing. This leads to lots of "circuit" tweaking in the amp models to get a tone you want. They do "capture" the cab behavior though, so as you see, both approaches have elements of the other incorporated to get good results.

Kemper, Helix and Fractal all have very mature on-line libraries of canned sounds from different amps. Quad Cortex is much more limited as it is much newer.

At the end of the day, being an old tube amp guy myself (Fender HRD, VHT Ultralead, VOX AC30, Marshall JCM800), It is MUCH easier for me to setup the Kemper to achieve tones for cover songs than it is on a Fractal or Line 6 device. Furthermore, the foot controller for Kemper is very well thought out for live use as is the "Performance" mode that is expressly designed for gigs.

The Line 6 and Fractal approach both offer much more routing capabilities than the Kemper with regards to doing anything you want with as many effects as you can get your head around. They even offer using more than one amp model within a single rig (which Kemper can't do at all).

I rarely mess with my live setup. I have tones I use in general, and a few I use for specific songs (like U2 songs). Last night is the first time this year I have setup a new sound (Acoustic simulation for the intro for "Friends in Low Places"). Now that I have that acoustic sound, I will likely use it for any future acoustic song unless the tone is way off for that purpose.

It is my experience that people that love modelers LOVE to tweak. I love to gig ;). For me, having a replacement for my tube amp rig is all I really want .... just lighter and less complicated to setup. I never wanted to be able to create a sound that my old rig could not, I only wanted to have a gig rig that was light (11.5lbs), fast to setup, and could cover the sounds I got with my old tube amps and pedal board.

The previous poster is correct about browsing through the Kemper Rig manager though. You can spend days auditioning the different rigs others have produced and shared on their Kempers. That's pretty fun too, but I only do it when I am looking for a new tone I need to reproduce. I can generally find what I need in under 15 min and have it tweaked to my liking in under 30 min. It get saved in a performance (set of 5 rigs) that I will use for a certain set of songs and ..... done!
 
The Kemper is actually a modeler underneath. There are set number of target models. A profile being one which is modified based on the profiling(which is a semi automated measurement system based on frequency analysis). Liquid profiling is a recent enhancement to include modeled tone stacks.
 
Yeah, Helix. Seriously.
Speaking as someone that really dove into modeling just last year... do it.
 
The Kemper is actually a modeler underneath. There are set number of target models. A profile being one which is modified based on the profiling(which is a semi automated measurement system based on frequency analysis). Liquid profiling is a recent enhancement to include modeled tone stacks.
That isn't at all how it works.

Capturing/profiling creates a system response. In math terms, it builds a Laplace transform of the system response of the amp and cab (look up signal and system processing if you want to really get your head in a bind, then think of the Kemper as building the function H(s)).

As I said, all of these "capture/profile" amps ALSO include a modeling SECTION that allows modification of the captured system response.

Liquid profiling (the latest enhancement to the MODELING section of the Kemper) attempts to make the controls on the Kemper mirror the controls and behavior of those controls from the original amp. Exe, if the amp had only a low and high eq knob, then the Liquid profile would only have those 2 controls. These controls would be modeled to have the same eq effect as the original amp did for those controls. The original Kemper profiles ALL had a 4 band eq that always behaved the same way on every profile. Some long-time Kemper users prefer using the standard controls from the Kemper on all profiles while others want their profiles to have the same controls as the original amp. Note: Since every amp has different behavior of the controls, this means that it is more difficult to get a handle on exactly what tweaking a specific knob is going to do to the sound (unless you are very familiar with that specific amp and how it behaves.

FWIW, I have never heard anyone that has played on both a Kemper and a Helix say they preferred the sound of the Helix. The general consensus between the top end Fractal and Kemper is that they both can create a very convincing tube tone with Fractal being able to do more with the EFX chain than Kemper and Kemper having slightly better raw tube tone.

Helix is a good value though and does quite a lot very well, it just falls short of the more expensive Fractal and Kemper.

My opinion is that a used Kemper Stage is as good a deal as can be found for live gigging, bar none.
 
FWIW, I have never heard anyone that has played on both a Kemper and a Helix say they preferred the sound of the Helix.
The only people I've heard that think you can just compare the sound of Kemper to the sound of Helix are people that are just not objective.

The Kemper can get sounds not available in the Helix. The Helix can get sounds not available from the Kemper. Both CAN sound pretty similar to one another. Both are great devices and can sound fantastic. Anyone that can't get good sounds out of a Helix either (1) hasn't spent much time with it or (2) is a moron and should just stick to gear where you load up an amp block somebody else created for them. One might still prefer the Kemper, but anybody that is STILL slagging on the Helix as inferior tonally -- honestly, for me, that's just a mental note of "this person's opinion is highly suspect".

The Kemper CAN sound incredible. The Kemper can also sound like utter garbage. The challenge here is the patience you have trying to find profiles that sound incredible. For me, if I was turning the cab modeling off, there were a lot of profiles that sounded great. If I was keeping cab modeling on...it was a longer, more tedious process. This applies to my experience with ToneX software, too.

The Helix CAN sound incredible. It can also sound like utter garbage. For me, the challenge here is ignoring the bits that I don't need to worry about and avoiding the internet's tendency to solve problems in dumb ways -- "Make sure you have Pad ON, input impedance set to X, put a compressor at the end of the chain to glue everything together and blah blah, and pure magic." While each user MAY have One Secret Trick to getting themselves to the happiest place, the bigger key is (1) zeroing in on a handful of amps that seem to be close to the feel, headroom, distortion characteristics you are shooting for and (2) getting to know either the cab block, or the IRs, that can then get you the frequency response you are looking for.

In terms of "modelers are for tweakers; Kempers are for the morally superior giggers" -- such utter nonsense. Loads of folks around hear with a folder on their computer with THOUSANDS of Kemper profiles that they have messed around with endlessly. The bigger differentiator between tweaker and non-tweaker is . . . those with 1,000+ posts on a gear forum are likely to be the kind of folks that like to tweak/play with a lot of gear, where those with sub-500, all within threads about one very narrow topic...know a lot about one very narrow topic.

Signed: verified Fractal Fanboi
 
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The only people I've heard that think you can just compare the sound of Kemper to the sound of Helix are people that are just not objective.

The Kemper can get sounds not available in the Helix. The Helix can get sounds not available from the Kemper. Both CAN sound pretty similar to one another. Both are great devices and can sound fantastic. Anyone that can't get good sounds out of a Helix either (1) hasn't spent much time with it or (2) is a moron and should just stick to gear where you load up an amp block somebody else created for them. One might still prefer the Kemper, but anybody that is STILL slagging on the Helix as inferior tonally -- honestly, for me, that's just a mental note of "this person's opinion is highly suspect".

The Kemper CAN sound incredible. The Kemper can also sound like utter garbage. The challenge here is the patience you have trying to find profiles that sound incredible. For me, if I was turning the cab modeling off, there were a lot of profiles that sounded great. If I was keeping cab modeling on...it was a longer, more tedious process. This applies to my experience with ToneX software, too.

The Helix CAN sound incredible. It can also sound like utter garbage. For me, the challenge here is ignoring the bits that I don't need to worry about and avoiding the internet's tendency to solve problems in dumb ways -- "Make sure you have Pad ON, input impedance set to X, put a compressor at the end of the chain to glue everything together and blah blah, and pure magic." While each user MAY have One Secret Trick to getting themselves to the happiest place, the bigger key is (1) zeroing in on a handful of amps that seem to be close to the feel, headroom, distortion characteristics you are shooting for and (2) getting to know either the cab block, or the IRs, that can then get you the frequency response you are looking for.

In terms of "modelers are for tweakers; Kempers are for the morally superior giggers" -- such utter nonsense. Loads of folks around hear with a folder on their computer with THOUSANDS of Kemper profiles that they have messed around with endlessly. The bigger differentiator between tweaker and non-tweaker is . . . those with 1,000+ posts on a gear forum are likely to be the kind of folks that like to tweak/play with a lot of gear, where those with sub-500, all within threads about one very narrow topic...know a lot about one very narrow topic.

Signed: verified Fractal Fanboi
I don't have the energy today, but one thousand percent all of this.
 
So that's like......


tenor.gif



100,000% :oops:
 
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Since only the profiler/capture device is attempting to recreate a specific amp, a Modeler, by definition, can not be compared directly to the sound of the amp it is attempting to recreate and therefore muddies the water for what "sounds better" having eliminated the ability to simply say "sounds exactly like" and utilize the base sound as the original tube amp itself.

Opinions of what "sounds better" are prolific in the extreme. Attempting to determine which person's "sounds better" will match your own is therefore impossible.

Statistically (based on my own reading of thousands of posts all over the internet and among my own group of friends that gig with various rigs), guitarist that value the sound of a good tube amp with minimal lathering of effects on it gravitate to profilers/capture devices. The Kemper is currently the best profiler/capture device on the market with respect to gigging features and workflow using the same statistical process.

The only people I've heard that think you can just compare the sound of Kemper to the sound of Helix are people that are just not objective.

Then you think that quite a few people with pretty impressive guitar playing credentials are not objective. Find me a review where Fractal, Kemper, the original tube amp, and helix are compared where the Helix was the preferred sound. I would be interested in hearing this.

The Kemper CAN sound incredible. The Kemper can also sound like utter garbage. The challenge here is the patience you have trying to find profiles that sound incredible. For me, if I was turning the cab modeling off, there were a lot of profiles that sounded great. If I was keeping cab modeling on...it was a longer, more tedious process. This applies to my experience with ToneX software, too.

The Helix CAN sound incredible. It can also sound like utter garbage. For me, the challenge here is ignoring the bits that I don't need to worry about and avoiding the internet's tendency to solve problems in dumb ways -- "Make sure you have Pad ON, input impedance set to X, put a compressor at the end of the chain to glue everything together and blah blah, and pure magic." While each user MAY have One Secret Trick to getting themselves to the happiest place, the bigger key is (1) zeroing in on a handful of amps that seem to be close to the feel, headroom, distortion characteristics you are shooting for and (2) getting to know either the cab block, or the IRs, that can then get you the frequency response you are looking for.
While both can be made to sound good (at least to my ear), it is easier for a person used to dealing with a tube amp and pedals to get the Kemper into the desired "tone" than the Helix (or Fractal for that matter). I know many people that would argue that the Helix in particular is simply not capable of reaching the same raw tube amp tone as either Fractal or Kemper. It is only when you bring the Helix considerable processing and efx capabilities to bear that a "good" sound is achieved (even by your own example). Many would argue that this "good" sound, while still a "good" sound is not the sound and behavior of a real tube amp.... but is still good.

In terms of "modelers are for tweakers; Kempers are for the morally superior giggers" -- such utter nonsense. Loads of folks around hear with a folder on their computer with THOUSANDS of Kemper profiles that they have messed around with endlessly. The bigger differentiator between tweaker and non-tweaker is . . . those with 1,000+ posts on a gear forum are likely to be the kind of folks that like to tweak/play with a lot of gear, where those with sub-500, all within threads about one very narrow topic...know a lot about one very narrow topic.

Signed: verified Fractal Fanboi
Never said or even eluded to such an utterly absurd statement.

I contend that MOST guitarist that gig, are NOT tweakers. They (as a statistical group) are interested in characteristics of traditional tube amps with respect to the ability to cut through the mix and sit in the mix nicely playing live. They are interested in pedalboard visibility, workflow, and usability including ergonomics, spill-over, and patch switching times as well as workflow enhancing features for a live performance.

Tweakers, on the other hand generally could care less what kind of foot controller the guitar processor has since they will (NEARLY ALWAYS) be using a PC to manipulate the plethora of settings and routings that the device offers. They are (statistically speaking) most interested in what kinds of sounds they can get and delight in creativity of new and original ways of processing a guitar that result in original sounds while being only mildly interested in re-creating the sound of a traditional raw tube amp tone.

It is not unreasonable to expect that a profiler with a good live pedalboard workflow would be preferred by a live musician while a great PC editor and superior flexibility of a modeler would be preferred by a tweaker.

Before everyone here gets their panties all in a bunch, I have seen the Helix used well in a live gig on more than one occasion. That still doesn't make it a superior tool to the Kemper for live use. It only means that you CAN achieve a good live result with it.

FYI, pay careful attention to what the OP said. See where he is coming from and think about what features would be most useful to him and be easiest to use. He isn't asking what your favorite modeler/profiler is. He is asking which one would best fit his needs.
 
Since only the profiler/capture device is attempting to recreate a specific amp, a Modeler, by definition, can not be compared directly to the sound of the amp it is attempting to recreate and therefore muddies the water for what "sounds better" having eliminated the ability to simply say "sounds exactly like" and utilize the base sound as the original tube amp itself.

Opinions of what "sounds better" are prolific in the extreme. Attempting to determine which person's "sounds better" will match your own is therefore impossible.

Statistically (based on my own reading of thousands of posts all over the internet and among my own group of friends that gig with various rigs), guitarist that value the sound of a good tube amp with minimal lathering of effects on it gravitate to profilers/capture devices. The Kemper is currently the best profiler/capture device on the market with respect to gigging features and workflow using the same statistical process.



Then you think that quite a few people with pretty impressive guitar playing credentials are not objective. Find me a review where Fractal, Kemper, the original tube amp, and helix are compared where the Helix was the preferred sound. I would be interested in hearing this.


While both can be made to sound good (at least to my ear), it is easier for a person used to dealing with a tube amp and pedals to get the Kemper into the desired "tone" than the Helix (or Fractal for that matter). I know many people that would argue that the Helix in particular is simply not capable of reaching the same raw tube amp tone as either Fractal or Kemper. It is only when you bring the Helix considerable processing and efx capabilities to bear that a "good" sound is achieved (even by your own example). Many would argue that this "good" sound, while still a "good" sound is not the sound and behavior of a real tube amp.... but is still good.


Never said or even eluded to such an utterly absurd statement.

I contend that MOST guitarist that gig, are NOT tweakers. They (as a statistical group) are interested in characteristics of traditional tube amps with respect to the ability to cut through the mix and sit in the mix nicely playing live. They are interested in pedalboard visibility, workflow, and usability including ergonomics, spill-over, and patch switching times as well as workflow enhancing features for a live performance.

Tweakers, on the other hand generally could care less what kind of foot controller the guitar processor has since they will (NEARLY ALWAYS) be using a PC to manipulate the plethora of settings and routings that the device offers. They are (statistically speaking) most interested in what kinds of sounds they can get and delight in creativity of new and original ways of processing a guitar that result in original sounds while being only mildly interested in re-creating the sound of a traditional raw tube amp tone.

It is not unreasonable to expect that a profiler with a good live pedalboard workflow would be preferred by a live musician while a great PC editor and superior flexibility of a modeler would be preferred by a tweaker.

Before everyone here gets their panties all in a bunch, I have seen the Helix used well in a live gig on more than one occasion. That still doesn't make it a superior tool to the Kemper for live use. It only means that you CAN achieve a good live result with it.

FYI, pay careful attention to what the OP said. See where he is coming from and think about what features would be most useful to him and be easiest to use. He isn't asking what your favorite modeler/profiler is. He is asking which one would best fit his needs.
At least post using your historical username.
 
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