Will capture/profile tech replace attenuation of nmv amps?

[AFKAEjay]

I’m thinking of getting a DRRI and add a poweramp input and a volume control for the signal going into the poweramp. Basically to allow abuse of it as a powered speaker for a modeler…and to have control of preamp gain independent from the volume.

Thinking of that setup, and how a deluxe can sound cranked,(nice but way too loud) the following hypothese surfaced:
Capturing a DI signal of a cranked NMV amp, (with kpa/qc/tonex) and run that capture into the poweramp&cab of that same amp will give more accurate/pleasing results then the goto solutions of attenuation and/or reamping.

I mean…there’s measurable proof that digital captures can do this accurately, at least for argument sake, let’s assume that’s true. Common knowledge seems to be that attenuators color sound quite a bit. If so…digital wins at least on paper?
Practically it would be adding a poweramp input + buy a tonex pedal (300,- total?) versus buying/carrying attenuators/powerstations.

Assuming capturing delivers its promise, assuming users will objectively judge gear on its merits…could/should capturing tech become the goto solution for single nmv amp users looking to get “that sound” at managable levels through poweramp/cab of the amp at hand?

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I’m thinking of getting a DRRI and add a poweramp input and a volume control for the signal going into the poweramp. Basically to allow abuse of it as a powered speaker for a modeler…and to have control of preamp gain independent from the volume.

Thinking of that setup, and how a deluxe can sound cranked,(nice but way too loud) the following hypothese surfaced:
Capturing a DI signal of a cranked NMV amp, (with kpa/qc/tonex) and run that capture into the poweramp&cab of that same amp will give more accurate/pleasing results then the goto solutions of attenuation and/or reamping.

I mean…there’s measurable proof that digital captures can do this accurately, at least for argument sake, let’s assume that’s true. Common knowledge seems to be that attenuators color sound quite a bit. If so…digital wins at least on paper?
Practically it would be adding a poweramp input + buy a tonex pedal (300,- total?) versus buying/carrying attenuators/powerstations.

Assuming capturing delivers its promise, assuming users will objectively judge gear on its merits…could/should capturing tech become the goto solution for single nmv amp users looking to get “that sound” at managable levels through poweramp/cab of the amp at hand?

The challenge you'd run into with a Deluxe Reverb, I would think, would be that its headroom is low enough that at anything with drums above, like, brushes-only-jazz-trio volumes you're probably going to be adding more compression/non-linearity sauce on top of that captured by the capturing device.

 

[AFKAEjay]

The challenge you'd run into with a Deluxe Reverb, I would think, would be that its headroom is low enough that at anything with drums above, like, brushes-only-jazz-trio volumes you're probably going to be adding more compression/non-linearity sauce on top of that captured by the capturing device.

True…as soon as you play on a volume beyond the headroom of the poweramp, you are doubling up on things the powersection does.
In my mind 22w goes a pretty long way. I don’t play with super loud drummers / big stages…but 25w, even 15, has been enough to get a 100% clean sound in the mix. But…I have had plenty of scenarios in my past where they wouldn’t have….#sillyplayerswithsillyvolumehabbits

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

True…as soon as you play on a volume beyond the headroom of the poweramp, you are doubling up on things the powersection does.
In my mind 22w goes a pretty long way. I don’t play with super loud drummers / big stages…but 25w, even 15, has been enough to get a 100% clean sound in the mix. But…I have had plenty of scenarios in my past where they wouldn’t have….#sillyplayerswithsillyvolumehabbits

Clean doesn't mean not compressed. The tell tale sign of that for me in smaller Fender amps is putting reverb on 2 and turning volume up until you start to notice the reverb getting to be more prominent despite not having touched the reverb knob. It happens at surprisingly quiet volumes with a Princeton Reverb reissue. Not that a little extra compression is a problem at all or anything, just a thing to keep in mind.

 

[Orvillain]

No.

 

[AFKAEjay]

Clean doesn't mean not compressed. The tell tale sign of that for me in smaller Fender amps is putting reverb on 2 and turning volume up until you start to notice the reverb getting to be more prominent despite not having touched the reverb knob. It happens at surprisingly quiet volumes with a Princeton Reverb reissue. Not that a little extra compression is a problem at all or anything, just a thing to keep in mind.

Same effect as running a reverb into something with “gain”. In my mind, that compression is actually a wee bit of clipping/gain, even though the sound is still perceived as clean.

 

[laxu]

Yes you could do it, but you run into a different compromise, basically guitar poweramp on top of guitar poweramp. Doesn't mean it can't sound good, especially at lower volume. Better than using an attenuator?

I think for a lot of NMV users the "all tubeness" of it is important, so they'd rather deal with the compromises of an attenuator rather than turn the signal into digital.

Having owned way too many volume reduction tools over the years..I'd rather just buy a modern master volume amp that doesn't need all this crap to sound great. IMO people overstate the importance of poweramp drive, when some volume is more important to have. Similarly people overstate the goodness of non-master volume amps. Most of what makes those amps sound good is that louder volume and reduced effectiveness of the bright cap when cranked.

 

[AFKAEjay]

I think for a lot of NMV users the "all tubeness" of it is important, so they'd rather deal with the compromises of an attenuator rather than turn the signal into digital.

Hence the assumption added that people judge the results on its merits

I think I agree with your look at nmv versus mv amps. But…there is something cool about them, so I get why people try to fit them in a modern usecase. Attenuators/reamping would be an unpractical bridge to far for me. Spend a bit of money to add a poweramp input for use with digital stuff…I think I’m gonna see where that gets me with a deluxe

 

[laxu]

Hence the assumption added that people judge the results on its merits

I think I agree with your look at nmv versus mv amps. But…there is something cool about them, so I get why people try to fit them in a modern usecase. Attenuators/reamping would be an unpractical bridge to far for me. Spend a bit of money to add a poweramp input for use with digital stuff…I think I’m gonna see where that gets me with a deluxe

Yeah I don't think most people care too much about the compromises of the best reactive attenuators or reamping boxes like the Fryette if it lets them use an amp they already have in a more practical manner. But it does add up in cost.

I'm not sure if modding a Deluxe Reverb is a good idea though. These type of amps don't have much preamp gain in the first place so having a separate gain and volume control might not work like you hope.

I had a Bogner Goldfinger which has a Blackface clean channel, which had its own gain and volume controls. With the preamp gain all you could get out of it was a light crunch. Cranking the poweramp got you more into the type of sound you expect from a driven Blackface style amp.

That's the thing with these old NMV designs, they don't have a lot of preamp gain so driving that poweramp is useful. Modern MV designs just pile on more preamp gain to compensate for the phase inverter and power tubes not overdriving. It's a bit different sound, but if the MV amp is designed to sound like the cranked amp, it can get surprisingly close.

 

[AFKAEjay]

I'm not sure if modding a Deluxe Reverb is a good idea though. These type of amps don't have much preamp gain in the first place so having a separate gain and volume control might not work like you hope.

I’m not aiming to get actual overdrive sounds out of it. For my clean sounds I want to be near clipping, but still perceived as clean, just to have the preamp add some compression/responsiveniss. At manageable volumes, a deluxe preamp doesn’t do that yet ime, but it does before getting into poweramp clipping, so perfectly capable of providing that.

 

[laxu]

I’m not aiming to get actual overdrive sounds out of it. For my clean sounds I want to be near clipping, but still perceived as clean, just to have the preamp add some compression/responsiveniss. At manageable volumes, a deluxe preamp doesn’t do that yet ime, but it does before getting into poweramp clipping, so perfectly capable of providing that.

I'd just try putting a boost pedal up front for that.

I like for example my BluGuitar's clean channel better for clean tones if I turn the built in boost on, it does something nice to the sound and gets to that "hairy clean" territory that is so satisfying especially with single coils.

 

[Life Eats Life]

I’m not aiming to get actual overdrive sounds out of it. For my clean sounds I want to be near clipping, but still perceived as clean, just to have the preamp add some compression/responsiveniss. At manageable volumes, a deluxe preamp doesn’t do that yet ime, but it does before getting into poweramp clipping, so perfectly capable of providing that.

Sounds like you need a RockerVerb MKIII
and use the channel attenuator.
That edge of break-up heaven, don’t come on the cheap or but the RV is a pocketbook pleasing
exception.
The RV trumped every amp in existence for the EOB tones at mouse fart volumes regardless of
the pocketbook.

 

[AFKAEjay]

I'd just try putting a boost pedal up front for that.

I like for example my BluGuitar's clean channel better for clean tones if I turn the built in boost on, it does something nice to the sound and gets to that "hairy clean" territory that is so satisfying especially with single coils.

When I look at the schematics (which I’m not experienced to read)…looks to me the volume pot is the first in chain..if I’m correct….clean boosting it does nothing different then raising the output of the pot. If there’s a gain stage before the pot, you are right.

 

[AFKAEjay]

Sounds like you need a RockerVerb MKIII
and use the channel attenuator.
That edge of break-up heaven, don’t come on the cheap or but the RV is a pocketbook pleasing
exception.
The RV trumped every amp in existence for the EOB tones at mouse fart volumes regardless of
the pocketbook.

Honestly, I can get the sounds I aim for from my current gear. The deluxe is an impractical high school crush I want to experiment with

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

When I look at the schematics (which I’m not experienced to read)…looks to me the volume pot is the first in chain..if I’m correct….clean boosting it does nothing different then raising the output of the pot. If there’s a gain stage before the pot, you are right.

My recollection is the Deluxe reverb has a gain stage first, then tone stack, then volume knob, then everything else. So -- there is a bit of difference if you are boosting enough out front to send that first gain stage into a bit of compression. I imagine the bigger difference is the tonal character imparted by the boost itself, as I've never found a boost that is just gain and doesn't impart some tonal color itself.

 

[AFKAEjay]

My recollection is the Deluxe reverb has a gain stage first, then tone stack, then volume knob, then everything else. So -- there is a bit of difference if you are boosting enough out front to send that first gain stage into a bit of compression. I imagine the bigger difference is the tonal character imparted by the boost itself, as I've never found a boost that is just gain and doesn't impart some tonal color itself.

So…to your knowledge the volume pot is the last “bus stop” before it hits the powersection? If correct, adding a volume control before the poweramp does nothing that the current pot doesn’t do already.

Cleanboosts..any eq pedal with an output control? Jackson audio bloom?
In the digital world I use eq blocks…

 

[AutomationBias]

I’m not aiming to get actual overdrive sounds out of it. For my clean sounds I want to be near clipping, but still perceived as clean, just to have the preamp add some compression/responsiveniss. At manageable volumes, a deluxe preamp doesn’t do that yet ime, but it does before getting into poweramp clipping, so perfectly capable of providing that.

My blackface Deluxe Reverb hits that sweet spot at around 5. You can get there at lower volumes with a Powerstation.

 

[AFKAEjay]

My blackface Deluxe Reverb hits that sweet spot at around 5. You can get there at lower volumes with a Powerstation.

Way too impractical for me. Then I’d rather run a capture of it into …maybe even its own poweramp

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

So…to your knowledge the volume pot is the last “bus stop” before it hits the powersection? If correct, adding a volume control before the poweramp does nothing that the current pot doesn’t do already.

Cleanboosts..any eq pedal with an output control? Jackson audio bloom?
In the digital world I use eq blocks…

No. It goes through 2 more gain stages, reverb and trem circuit after the volume pot, by my recollection. In general, from schematics I have looked at, there is almost always one gain stage before anything that happens in any amp, which makes sense - the output from the guitar is tiny. Indeed, amps usually use a shielded wire betweeen the input Jack and that first gain stage to protect that tiny signal, but not anywhere else in the circuit (you also often only see V1 preamp tube with the metal shield thing on it). Could almost think of that as just the input buffer probably? I am absolutely no amp expert though. It’s why everyone always talks about “slamming V1 with a boost” (though, technically, it’s only half of V1 since each preamp tube includes two gain stages and the other half of V1 is after tonestack and volume knob in the black panel Fenders).