- Messages
- 5,618
Key is important. I don't claim to be an expert at theory or teaching, but if you're playing in A myxolydian and then move the root up a full step you'd be in B aeolian. Same notes.
What's the key to landing on the right note AND flowing ideas that fit?
- Thread starter cragginshred
- Start date
cragginshred
Roadie
- Messages
- 381
My wife is a pianist and has that book. It is the
\only one I've seen that shows how they all fit together like a puzzle which is both cool and also confusing
I want to solo in Dorian or whatever, then I go to the next position and I am in the next mode or am I in the same mode? Clearly the rhythm will not change so does the new mode fit the designated rhythm despite being in a different mode??
Hopefully that makes sense, but as stated above no one has been able to answer this. a video using the Grimoire modal map and how they relate in the context of staying in a particular mode up and down the neck would be awesome!!
fetishfrog
Groupie
- Messages
- 22
The mode is determined by the tonal center of the over all music. For example, if you're 'in D' and a playing the notes that correspond to C Major/D Dorian/etc.. what you will hear will sound Dorian. If the tonal center was 'in G', it would sound Mixolydian.
- Messages
- 9,179
I understand what you're asking, I'm just too theory stupid to answer it efficiently.
I've seen the vids where they're getting you to memorize the modes by moving the same pattern around the neck, I just haven't attempted learning them that way as it makes more sense for me to learn the mode as it's laid out across the whole fingerboard. I get confused pretty quickly trying to learn that way, it's just easier for me to see all the notes up and down the fingerboard then memorize those patterns. Like this-
If you memorize that and play any of the blue notes, light or dark, you're playing E Dorian, regardless what position you're in. It's only when you start moving the mode shapes that you can move to a new mode by changing positions.
The key of the song will dictate how many sharps or flats are in it, the modes are the road maps to keep you away from the notes that aren't in the key the song is in, but since many keys and modes share the same notes, there's a TON of overlap. A knowledgeable guitarist can look at the key of a song, then the chord progression and think "I can play E Lydian, then jump to A Dorian then finish in D Mixolydian" (just examples, I do not know what is shared between those modes) because they have those maps memorized.
Someone else here can probably explain that so, so, so much better than me. @Ed DeGenaro is smart in the head when it comes to this stuff!
- Messages
- 13,269
Theory and things like modes can be challenging to discuss (and sometimes comes off as pretentious) if
the recipient is not fluent with some of the language and rules.
Shared language/understanding is crucial in having a conversation.
My honest two cents is us knowing the notes up and down the fretboard, and then the modes/scales
following from that is essential----otherwise the mode/theory talk is just Charlie Brown's parents
talking.
You don't have to know the notes, and then the modes and their respective intervals. Can still make
great music without that knowledge. But in terms of growing our ability and discussing these things
there really isn't another alternative.
the recipient is not fluent with some of the language and rules.
Shared language/understanding is crucial in having a conversation.
My honest two cents is us knowing the notes up and down the fretboard, and then the modes/scales
following from that is essential----otherwise the mode/theory talk is just Charlie Brown's parents
talking.
You don't have to know the notes, and then the modes and their respective intervals. Can still make
great music without that knowledge. But in terms of growing our ability and discussing these things
there really isn't another alternative.
- Messages
- 13,269
I don't know of a ton of songs that have key changes mid-solo. So changing from
one mode to another is not always needed/required.
Also, modes can have both minor and major tonalities. That is related to the 3rd
note of a scale/mode and if it is flatted or not. Flat 3rd = Minor tonality. 3rd=
Major tonality.
Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian all have a Minor tonalities and work in songs that
are in minor key signatures. Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian have a major tonality
and work in songs with a major key signature.
My experience is you can mix the major and minor modes together far easier than
mixing major and minor modes together. Although there are not absolutes.
- Messages
- 13,269
And since most everyone knows a pentatonic (major and minor) sometimes it is
easy to look at the Modes as just pentatonics with a 2nd and 6th. If you know
your pentatonics in various places you can use that as a foundation and then just
focus on adding in the 2nd and 6th intervals for added colour.
easy to look at the Modes as just pentatonics with a 2nd and 6th. If you know
your pentatonics in various places you can use that as a foundation and then just
focus on adding in the 2nd and 6th intervals for added colour.
Ed DeGenaro
Roadie
- Messages
- 918
To answer the OP…
If we start with the concept of melody or better yet major melody we’ve been culturally conditioned to expect certain things.
The 2nd likes to resolve down to the root, the 7th up to the octave, and the 4th down to the 3rd.
The 3rd likes to resolve down to the root, and inversely the 6th likes to go up to the octave or down to the 5th.
And the 5th likes to go up to the octave or down to the root.
Personally I like when folks understand the fretboard in intervals.
I mean when we know a power chord we know root and 5th.
From there it’s just a numbers game which is logically laid out until the B string where every thing just needs to move up a fret.
Your brain perceives all of the notes except the tonal centres, 1 and 1 (8), in some
state of unrest as you play the scale. You can use any of several terms to characterize
these interval dynamics:
restless vs at rest
unbalanced vs balanced
tense vs resolved
unstable vs stable
dissonant vs consonant
The instant these forces come into play—the instant you hear a series of notes
played or sung (a succession of intervals)—your brain may sense a tune (musical
motion).
It depends on the frequency ratios of the intervals and whether or not your
brain can sense in those intervals an underlying organization.
Your brain automatically tries to determine if the intervals correspond to simple
ratios of frequencies. It will also try to determine the tonal centre, the note that serves as the anchor for purposes of identifying the simple ratios.
If it identifies several familiar simple frequency ratios, it instantly understands the organizing principle (a diatonic scale) and perceives some sort of tune—a succession of intervals manifesting a variety of levels of dynamic tension.
If we start with the concept of melody or better yet major melody we’ve been culturally conditioned to expect certain things.
The 2nd likes to resolve down to the root, the 7th up to the octave, and the 4th down to the 3rd.
The 3rd likes to resolve down to the root, and inversely the 6th likes to go up to the octave or down to the 5th.
And the 5th likes to go up to the octave or down to the root.
Personally I like when folks understand the fretboard in intervals.
I mean when we know a power chord we know root and 5th.
From there it’s just a numbers game which is logically laid out until the B string where every thing just needs to move up a fret.
Your brain perceives all of the notes except the tonal centres, 1 and 1 (8), in some
state of unrest as you play the scale. You can use any of several terms to characterize
these interval dynamics:
restless vs at rest
unbalanced vs balanced
tense vs resolved
unstable vs stable
dissonant vs consonant
The instant these forces come into play—the instant you hear a series of notes
played or sung (a succession of intervals)—your brain may sense a tune (musical
motion).
It depends on the frequency ratios of the intervals and whether or not your
brain can sense in those intervals an underlying organization.
Your brain automatically tries to determine if the intervals correspond to simple
ratios of frequencies. It will also try to determine the tonal centre, the note that serves as the anchor for purposes of identifying the simple ratios.
If it identifies several familiar simple frequency ratios, it instantly understands the organizing principle (a diatonic scale) and perceives some sort of tune—a succession of intervals manifesting a variety of levels of dynamic tension.
Attachments
Ed DeGenaro
Roadie
- Messages
- 918
FWIW your E Dorian also happens to be D Ionian, F# Phrygian, G Lydian, A Mixolydian, B Aeolian and C# Locrian.I understand what you're asking, I'm just too theory stupid to answer it efficiently.
I've seen the vids where they're getting you to memorize the modes by moving the same pattern around the neck, I just haven't attempted learning them that way as it makes more sense for me to learn the mode as it's laid out across the whole fingerboard. I get confused pretty quickly trying to learn that way, it's just easier for me to see all the notes up and down the fingerboard then memorize those patterns. Like this-
If you memorize that and play any of the blue notes, light or dark, you're playing E Dorian, regardless what position you're in. It's only when you start moving the mode shapes that you can move to a new mode by changing positions.
The key of the song will dictate how many sharps or flats are in it, the modes are the road maps to keep you away from the notes that aren't in the key the song is in, but since many keys and modes share the same notes, there's a TON of overlap. A knowledgeable guitarist can look at the key of a song, then the chord progression and think "I can play E Lydian, then jump to A Dorian then finish in D Mixolydian" (just examples, I do not know what is shared between those modes) because they have those maps memorized.
Someone else here can probably explain that so, so, so much better than me. @Ed DeGenaro is smart in the head when it comes to this stuff!
But none if this will sound modal until you have a key center.
IOW, one approach is to simply think key center as in that pool of notes is diatonic to D major, drawback is that you need to get good at superimposing on the fly.
As in if the chords go Em7 to A7 I can use all the notes of the D major scale.
Caveat, emphasis must be on the nites if Em7 and A7.
There is where intervals come in...
Assuming we know where our root us then there's literally only 2-3 ways to get to the next note.
Like if my root is A on the 7th fret in the D string and I want to go to it's 3rd the note C#
My options are riot on first finger, then the closest major 3rd is pinky on 9th fret same string.
If I fret that A with middle finger then the 3rd is index 6th fret g string.
If I fret it with ring or pinky the the 3rd is ring or middle 6th fret g string, or index 2nd fret b string.
- Messages
- 9,179
Thank you, sir!
Satch had a good demonstration of modes over a tonal center-
I think if I had modes shown to me like this at an earlier age I would have been so much more interested. Seeing them in print and not playing them over chord tones just presented a bunch of patterns that never really interested me as a result of not hearing how they play around that tonal center.
TSJMajesty
Rock Star
- Messages
- 5,140
I was going to look for his video on modes, but this video probably suits the thread topic better. If you really want to get into the whole topic of making solos sound like they really fit, as well as have some style to them, you'd do well to follow this guy's teaching. He is REALLY good at it. And he can play. And write. And record. And produce.
By the way, your ear should instantly HEAR what he did different in his 2nd example over the A major chord. To me, recognizing that type of 'musicality' is the first step towards the gist of what I get your op question to be.
- Messages
- 1,043