What is it about old tubes?

metropolis_4

Rock Star
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4,325
Why are they so satisfying?

Just got a whole sleeve of NOS RCA 5879s and something about it makes me so happy

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Back in the day, tubes were made better. The machines the parts were made with were properly maintained and new. Allow me to explain further, since I took a ridiculously deep dive into this in the '00s when I started using NOS tubes.

To a degree, there's a mechanical component to the manufacture of tubes.

First, they work most efficiently when the metal parts inside the tube are properly made with proper alignment between anode and cathode (the electrons jump from cathode to the anode and are amplified) well coated, wired, etc. There is a grid that gets the voltage and controls how fast the electrons move between the anode and cathode. It's made of a wire material. The getter and glass coatings are designed to absorb the gases that are emitted. The spacer design that keeps the parts from the glass, with multiple 'fingers' to prevent mechanical ringing, proper vacuum, etc., matters.

How these parts are put together makes a difference. They need to be correctly spaced and aligned. That takes (a) good machinery and metal quality, and (b) correct assembly by the hand-workers.

What you don't want is for the tube to mechanically ring when it's subjected to vibration, because to a degree all tubes will vibrate. The tubes in a guitar amp obviously are either subject to torture inside a combo amp, or sitting on a speaker cabinet in the case of a head, and they will still vibrate sympathetically to the volume a guitar cab puts out. You can hear this, since even a good tube is slightly microphonic. Nature of the beast.

When tube manufacture stopped here in the late '70s, the machines were sold to manufacturers in other countries. The machines that were made in the UK and Europe were sold to Eastern Europe and Russia.

Those machines are still in use, and as you can imagine, they are very old. If new parts were/are made, they weren't made by the original manufacturer of the machine. Tolerances are not the same.

The parts were assembled by hand, by trained personnel, before being put into the glass envelopes.

There were trade secrets to tube manufacture, and the people designing the tubes and machines began their experience at the dawn of the tube age (WW1 and after), and then there was a second generation trained by the first from the 1940s to the late seventies/early eighties. Most of those folks are no longer on the planet.

In other words, they knew what they were doing, had new machines that made things to proper tolerances, and the quality of assembly was much better.

I once had photos of NOS and new-manufacture tubes on Imgur that I could post. I no longer have the photos, but I can explain what was in them.

If you look at a high quality NOS tube, you see that the legs holding the plates upright are straight and parallel. They are often a thicker gauge than modern tubes. Even the wires are often thicker. The spacers had lots of fingers to reduce vibration between the glass and the innards.

If you look at modern tubes, you'll see the metal parts inside skewed, often bent, etc. I can't speak to the quality of the materials used, but it's clear that the legs are thinner, wires thinner, etc., on many modern tubes. Also clear is that the mica spacers are different; often there are fewer or no fingers holding the parts away from the glass.

So modern tubes tend to rattle when vibrated. In the '60s and '70s we NEVER had to resort to rubber rings around tubes to stop vibration, etc. Amps sounded the way the Great Gods of Tone intended! [BTW, the Eurotubes rings work if you have a problem with modern output tubes in a combo amp.]

So by and large you find that NOS tubes are less 'ringy' and harsh; the signal is simply amplified better for all the above reasons.

I spoke to one of the Mesa techs about tubes, and was told flat out, they can't find quality modern tubes, and what quality is there is getting worse and worse. He told me that he will not buy a combo amp because the tube quality is so low they can't make the tubes not rattle.

Final Thoughts About NOS

Installing NOS isn't going to make you go, "OMG, this is AMAZING!"

What they do is far more subtle: NOS tubes make owning the amp long-term more satisfying.

It turns off the merry-go-round and you find your amps are pretty wonderful and they're keepers. If you're a person who keeps all their gear regardless, installing NOS might make them sound even better to you in the long run.

I've installed NOS in all my amps (haven't done it yet with the Mark VII but will). Before going NOS, I was on the amp merry-go-round. After a relatively short while, I'd get a little antsy for something different.

Since going fully NOS, I haven't sold or traded a single amplifier except the Mark V - and I only did that because I wasn't using two of the three channels (I'm more of an 'edge of breakup' player than a high gain person). My oldest amp will be 12 years old early in 2026, and they range to 2019 for the last one I bought before the Mark VII a few months ago.

The only viable alternative to NOS I've found are cryogenically treated quality tubes - JJs qualify as they seem to be mechanically well made, though I haven't yet tried Psvane, that I hear are also trying hard to improve tube quality.

Cryogenics is something I thought was snake oil. Turns out it isn't. It's an industrial process that was developed by engineers at one of the universities near me, for the purpose of making metals more rigid; I'm in the Detroit area where metal cars and trucks got made). Obviously if you start with a decent tube, rigid parts are less susceptible to rattles and failure.

There's a US company that bought the Telefunken name, and they make very expensive microphones. Some are tube mics, so they select JJ tubes and have them cryo-treated. Their output tubes rattle and ring less than other new tubes, and sound pretty darn good. They're what I use for the output tubes in my Fillmore (the rest of its tubes are NOS JAN-GE military grade tubes). I bought them as a temporary fix because I couldn't find the tubes I wanted, but they sound very good for modern 6L6s. Everything else uses NOS.

Note that the 'JAN' (joint army-navy, UK has another designation - CV I think) are production line tubes that simply tested well. Jet fighters had lots of tube gear for a long time because they were worried that transistors would be destroyed by radiation in nuclear explosions, and obviously they didn't want failure.

I like Siemens tubes because they were intended for critical use in the medical equipment Siemens made. I think, however, at least some of the tubes were made by UK (Mullard, Brimar, etc.), Netherlands (Philips, Bugle Boy etc.,) and later East German companies, and were labeled Siemens after testing.
 
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Back in the day, tubes were made better. The machines the parts were made with were properly maintained and new. Allow me to explain further, since I took a ridiculously deep dive into this in the '00s when I started using NOS tubes.

To a degree, there's a mechanical component to the manufacture of tubes.

First, they work most efficiently when the metal parts inside the tube are properly made with proper alignment between anode and cathode (the electrons jump from cathode to the anode and are amplified) well coated, wired, etc. There is a grid that gets the voltage and controls how fast the electrons move between the anode and cathode. It's made of a wire material. The getter and glass coatings are designed to absorb the gases that are emitted. The spacer design that keeps the parts from the glass, with multiple 'fingers' to prevent mechanical ringing, proper vacuum, etc., matters.

How these parts are put together makes a difference. They need to be correctly spaced and aligned. That takes (a) good machinery and metal quality, and (b) correct assembly by the hand-workers.

What you don't want is for the tube to mechanically ring when it's subjected to vibration, because to a degree all tubes will vibrate. The tubes in a guitar amp obviously are either subject to torture inside a combo amp, or sitting on a speaker cabinet in the case of a head, and they will still vibrate sympathetically to the volume a guitar cab puts out. You can hear this, since even a good tube is slightly microphonic. Nature of the beast.

When tube manufacture stopped here in the late '70s, the machines were sold to manufacturers in other countries. The machines that were made in the UK and Europe were sold to Eastern Europe and Russia.

Those machines are still in use, and as you can imagine, they are very old. If new parts were/are made, they weren't made by the original manufacturer of the machine. Tolerances are not the same.

The parts were assembled by hand, by trained personnel, before being put into the glass envelopes.

There were trade secrets to tube manufacture, and the people designing the tubes and machines began their experience at the dawn of the tube age (WW1 and after), and then there was a second generation trained by the first from the 1940s to the late seventies/early eighties. Most of those folks are no longer on the planet.

In other words, they knew what they were doing, had new machines that made things to proper tolerances, and the quality of assembly was much better.

I once had photos of NOS and new-manufacture tubes on Imgur that I could post. I no longer have the photos, but I can explain what was in them.

If you look at a high quality NOS tube, you see that the legs holding the plates upright are straight and parallel. They are often a thicker gauge than modern tubes. Even the wires are often thicker. The spacers had lots of fingers to reduce vibration between the glass and the innards.

If you look at modern tubes, you'll see the metal parts inside skewed, often bent, etc. I can't speak to the quality of the materials used, but it's clear that the legs are thinner, wires thinner, etc., on many modern tubes. Also clear is that the mica spacers are different; often there are fewer or no fingers holding the parts away from the glass.

So modern tubes tend to rattle when vibrated. In the '60s and '70s we NEVER had to resort to rubber rings around tubes to stop vibration, etc. Amps sounded the way the Great Gods of Tone intended! [BTW, the Eurotubes rings work if you have a problem with modern output tubes in a combo amp.]

So by and large you find that NOS tubes are less 'ringy' and harsh; the signal is simply amplified better for all the above reasons.

I spoke to one of the Mesa techs about tubes, and was told flat out, they can't find quality modern tubes, and what quality is there is getting worse and worse. He told me that he will not buy a combo amp because the tube quality is so low they can't make the tubes not rattle.

Final Thoughts About NOS

Installing NOS isn't going to make you go, "OMG, this is AMAZING!"

What they do is far more subtle: NOS tubes make owning the amp long-term more satisfying.

It turns off the merry-go-round and you find your amps are pretty wonderful and they're keepers. If you're a person who keeps all their gear regardless, installing NOS might make them sound even better to you in the long run.

I've installed NOS in all my amps (haven't done it yet with the Mark VII but will). Before going NOS, I was on the amp merry-go-round. After a relatively short while, I'd get a little antsy for something different.

Since going fully NOS, I haven't sold or traded a single amplifier except the Mark V - and I only did that because I wasn't using two of the three channels (I'm more of an 'edge of breakup' player than a high gain person). My oldest amp will be 12 years old early in 2026, and they range to 2019 for the last one I bought before the Mark VII a few months ago.

The only viable alternative to NOS I've found are cryogenically treated quality tubes - JJs qualify as they seem to be mechanically well made, though I haven't yet tried Psvane, that I hear are also trying hard to improve tube quality.

Cryogenics is something I thought was snake oil. Turns out it isn't. It's an industrial process that was developed by engineers at one of the universities near me, for the purpose of making metals more rigid; I'm in the Detroit area where metal cars and trucks got made). Obviously if you start with a decent tube, rigid parts are less susceptible to rattles and failure.

There's a US company that bought the Telefunken name, and they make very expensive microphones. Some are tube mics, so they select JJ tubes and have them cryo-treated. Their output tubes rattle and ring less than other new tubes, and sound pretty darn good. They're what I use for the output tubes in my Fillmore (the rest of its tubes are NOS JAN-GE military grade tubes). I bought them as a temporary fix because I couldn't find the tubes I wanted, but they sound very good for modern 6L6s. Everything else uses NOS.

Note that the 'JAN' (joint army-navy, UK has another designation - CV I think) are production line tubes that simply tested well. Jet fighters had lots of tube gear for a long time because they were worried that transistors would be destroyed by radiation in nuclear explosions, and obviously they didn't want failure.

I like Siemens tubes because they were intended for critical use in the medical equipment Siemens made. I think, however, at least some of the tubes were made by UK (Mullard, Brimar, etc.), Netherlands (Philips, Bugle Boy etc.,) and later East German companies, and were labeled Siemens after testing.

Very interesting read, thanks for sharing this!
 
The vibe on those old tube brands and boxes is an understated elegance to the boxes that is missing on more modern stuff.

As for the actual tubes, for me it's hit and miss. The SED =C= 6L6GC tubes in my Mark V are straight up great in that amp, but it's not like the modern TAD 6L6GCM-STRs are that far off either.

For preamp tubes I've got some stuff that is a few decades old, as well as some oddball JAN GE NOS 5751 and 12AT7 tubes - things that weren't that expensive even a decade back. But there is no real "the NOS stuff is just straight up better" in most cases, it's more like fine tuning with tubes where different makes and models alter the tone a bit but there's no straight "ok, this is better than everything else" there.
 
As for the actual tubes, for me it's hit and miss. The SED =C= 6L6GC tubes in my Mark V are straight up great in that amp, but it's not like the modern TAD 6L6GCM-STRs are that far off either.
The Winged Cs were nice, modern tubes. They were the factory tubes that came in my PRS HXDA head (EL34s). When I met Doug Sewell, the amp's designer, we were talking about NOS and he suggested trying the Siemens EL-34. He felt a pair of these are the closest to the old Mullards that came in the Marshall Plexis.

So I bought a set of the Siemens and installed them. There was immediate improvement (given my own taste): Tighter bass, different midrange, a bit more bite in the higher frequencies. Being a guy who was worried about not being able to get more, I bought two more sets.

Eventually I installed them just for grins in my Lone Star 100 and set the switch to EL34s. I love them in that amp; previously I'd installed Telefunken 6L6s that sounded quite good and didn't rattle, but the Siemens don't rattle either, and I like Channel 2 now. Obviously I'm not comparing apples to apples, because I'm comparing them to 6L6s in that amp. But I kept them there, and that's what I'm using currently.

This doesn't mean I necessarily disagree with you about the SED vs TAD, because I haven't tried the TAD, and I've only tried SED in my HXDA.

When I was buying Two-Rocks the factory installed NOS glass as an option, and I had them do that.

But there is no real "the NOS stuff is just straight up better" in most cases, it's more like fine tuning with tubes where different makes and models alter the tone a bit but there's no straight "ok, this is better than everything else" there.
Perhaps you'll be surprised given my emphasis on NOS -I don't disagree with you because it's all personal and related to your ears, your playing style, your other gear and blah blah blah.

There's no 'best' anything - there is only what's best for you.

When I'm talking about tubes, I'm not prescribing, I'm describing the stuff I prefer. It doesn't have to apply to anyone else, and I do think people should judge these things for themselves.

I like what NOS tubes do, but I stick with tried and tested tubes: the JAN GE, the old Mullard ECC83, the Brimars, Siemens, and RCA 7025.

So I might say offhand that the NOS are the best, but what I really mean is, 'best for me, YMMV'. If I give another impression, mea culpa.
 
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This doesn't mean I necessarily disagree with you about the SED vs TAD, because I haven't tried the TAD, and I've only tried SED in my HXDA.
I'm really talking more about "Is the cost of NOS worth it at all?"

Tubedepot (US) sells SED 6L6GC at $149 per tube. So a quartet would be $596. That's very expensive.
Watford Valves (UK) sells a quarter for £224 = $300. That is more reasonable.

So let's say I order those from Watford to Finland. Thats £224 + £35 shipping + VAT + customs taxes = ~375 € total = ~$437
That is a lot of money for a set of powertubes, almost a quarter of what I paid for the amp itself.

By comparison, a quartet of new TAD Redbase 6L6GCM-STR - which sounds almost as good in this amp, is 150 € = ~$175.
Will the SEDs last longer and thus prove their value over time? Hard to say.

Some of these NOS tubes have just become so expensive that it's hard to justify for me at least. Hindsight is 20/20, but I wish I had bought some tubes back when SED were in business. Both the 6L6 and EL34s were excellent.
 
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I don’t know how many times I have watched this outstanding YouTube video over the last 13 years .
Hand Made Vacuum Tubes by Claude Paillard.
Claude has skills that are dying out.👌
I love that one. There's also this, and another one by Mullard that I haven't found in my ten second search:



They get to smaller tubes at the end of the video, but not much info.

RCA manufacture, 1966:

 
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I always wonder for how long there will be NOS around
I thought I had enough NOS tubes to last the rest of my days, but I gave some away to friends, installed others in an amp I thought might not need them, and now find myself needing several spares, not to mention with the Mark VII, I want to get resupplied.

This time I'm going to get enough to re-tube the Mark VII (this winter) and have spares. Not that there's a chance they'll run completely out in my lifetime, but the prices will go up as the years roll along.

...après moi le déluge
 
On the left is an NOS Mullard Blackburn, double-O getter, Siemens label EL34. It's very well made. Next to it, Mesa-branded NOS Siemens, probably RFT (Germany); also well made. Next to it, modern Mullard-brand Russian tube. You can see it's a different tube. Note the construction differences, the lack of separating 'fingers' on the Russian tube's mica spacers, differences in the support structure, crimped plates vs original welded plates, etc. There's a pretty substantial physical difference. This tube will also rattle like crazy in a combo amp. It will not sound the same as NOS.

In other words, it's merely a modern Russian tube with a label, nothing more. A close look at most modern tubes will reveal similar differences in construction quality, corners cut, etc. vs NOS.

My HXDA and Lone Star 100 are equipped with the Mesa-branded Siemens EL34s. I think they sound great. The HXDA came with Winged Cs; the bottom was comparatively bloated and mushy with the Winged Cs, and one of them blew shortly after getting the amp.

On the right, a Winged C SED EL34. Again, no mica fingers, instead there are what appear to be metal fingers attached to the spacers (talk about things that will rattle glass!), and cockeyed construction. While this tube sounds a little closer to the Mullard and the Siemens/Mesa, it's also not the same. The fact that they're calling these tubes NOS because they're no longer made, and charging NOS prices, is kind of a joke.

How tubes are manufactured makes a difference.

Far right is a modern JJ EL34. It's a better made tube than the fake Mullard or the Winged C SED tube, and that's clear from its construction, from the support structure, straight construction to the proper mica spacers with fingers to prevent rattle. IMHO this tube sounds very good, and close to NOS. The Mark VII that I have here was equipped at the factory with JJ6L6 (branded Mesa) tubes. I may not bother replacing them yet, though I will replace the preamp tubes with NOS.
 

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