"Warm" bridge pickup for Ibanez 335 clone?

[FuzzyAce]

Are those Flying fingers pickups held together with epoxy like Gibson Tarbacks are? If so, covers are never coming off.

I really like Super 58s, and they're brand correct...

Probably something like that. It has the consistency of at least solid hot glue.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Guess my best bet for now is indeed to fool around with a c-switch - as said, with this particular guitar I'd really like to keep the look intact.
Maybe I'll also find a good cap/res combo to lower the neck pickup's output a bit. There's still a tad of leeway to lower the height a bit, but I already know that it'll start to sound a tad too indirect in that case.

 

[AutomationBias]

The bridge pickup on my 335 is super bright, too. I roll the tone down to between 5 and 7 to take the edge off, and/or use the middle position with the neck pickup rolled off a little.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I roll the tone down to between 5 and 7 to take the edge off

Yeah, did that (obviously) for the time being, but as soon as there's a really noticeable change, the pickup is losing all of its character (even if that character is questionable to start with), likely because it's a pretty typical tone control doing too much once it kicks in. Add to this that I need to dial it down yet some more so the high mids (possibly the real culprit here) are still sticking out, even with the highs already tamed.

Interestingly enough, when I add some really almost brutal compression, things are getting a lot better (obviously because the high mid peaks are captured by the compressor) and I can get into almos Tele-alike country-ish territory, but that's not exactly the ground I like to cover with this guitar.

 

[la szum]

335-style guitars tend to be deceptively "bright" overall, in my experience. Not what
we tend to expect, though.



Sounds like a fun little Resurrection of an old gem!

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

My assumption is that pots are the biggest contributer to bright/not so bright, and would investigate that first

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

335-style guitars tend to be deceptively "bright" overall, in my experience. Not what
we tend to expect, though.



Sounds like a fun little Resurrection of an old gem!

It took me a loooooong time to finally realize “oh, that’s just what they sound like. My idea that hollow = warm is the faulty part of this”

 

[newholland]

maybe try something a2 in the bridge (a slash or a2pro, or mebbe a custom custom or a 57 classic?), and back the neck way off? i put one in a norlin LPC and it was an awesome fit for the guitar. it didnt really ever work super great with the ttop in the neck, but i seldom used ot, and the maple and ebony and pancake brightness softened a bit. its abroght guitar and it kept its nice cut and didnt do the vowely middly lester thing either.

 

[Eagle]

It took me a loooooong time to finally realize “oh, that’s just what they sound like. My idea that hollow = warm is the faulty part of this”

Yes what part of maple ply as well did anyone think was going to be warm either.

 

[la szum]

It took me a loooooong time to finally realize “oh, that’s just what they sound like. My idea that hollow = warm is the faulty part of this”

Exactly the same. It's so counter-intuitive.

It's probably why 335s make such great Country guitars, too.

 

[la szum]

Yes what part of maple ply as well did anyone think was going to be warm either.

You have a world-class ability to make me feel exceptionally dumb and dim-witted.

 

[Sascha Franck]

335-style guitars tend to be deceptively "bright" overall, in my experience. Not what
we tend to expect, though.

Well, the neck pickup sounds great and warm - but it does have quite some brilliance/presence to it, too. Which is pretty nice once you do funky stuff and such.
The "brightness" isn't exactly my issue, anyway, it's really the higher mids coming through the bridge pickup. Those are defenitely there on the neck pickup, too - but in that case they help nicely to cut through and still do so even when you dial down the tone pot a bit.

It took me a loooooong time to finally realize “oh, that’s just what they sound like. My idea that hollow = warm is the faulty part of this”

Yeah, sort of guity as charged. Always thought that jazz boxes would be rather "warm", too (well, at least 2-3 decades ago...), but when you listen to old recordings, there's plenty of "sheen" on the guitars. What made them sound warm is likely a combination of neck pickup, amp and playing.
Which is also why the typical faux jazz sound of using pretty much any guitar, any neck pickup and then dial down the tone pot to some degree never sounds "authentic" at all. The real "wooden character" only comes through when there's a healthy amount of treble and high mids.
Just that those result in the bridge pickup choice to become an issue, even more so once the bridge pickup is close to the bridge.

Guess it had to take Malcolm Young to demonstrate how "sort-of-jazz-box-looking" things were actually great for some serious riffing.

Anyhow, I actually remember watching a video of someone who apparently had Gibson made a custom 335 (I absolutely don't remember whom it was, maybe @Eagle knows more) - and what they did was placing the bridge pickup around a centimeter closer to the neck.
This is actually something I considered for my Ibanez, as years of experimenting with pickup positions on my own demonstrated just how much of a difference such rather small differences can cause.
But then, if I would really go that way, I'd want it to be done properly - which would cost quite some money. So I rather fool around with the pickups and electrics first.

My assumption is that pots are the biggest contributer to bright/not so bright, and would investigate that first

I will defenitely rip out the electrics somewhen in the next weeks (2 gigs to go before where I really want to use the guitar). I will then extend the pickup cables and build the entire circuit on a piece of cardboard. As said, I also want to fool around with a rotary c-switch, which always is a trial'n'error thing.

Btw, I actually thought about having a luthier cut me some part of the back out, so I'd have easy access to the electrics, but I fear to lose some acoustic properties. What would you say, @Eagle?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, fooled around some with the height of the bridge pickup. When I lower it quite a bit, things are really getting much more acceptable, a decent tone control (the existing one cuts too much - or rather too broadbanded) or a simple c-switch should be doing the rest just fine.
Output volume is pretty much in line with my other main guitars as well, which defenitely is an advance.

However, it leaves me with the issue of the neck pickup being quite too loud. So, what would be my best bet to linearily lower the output volume? Any tried and trusted cap/res combos for a start? I could actually even measure how much of a volume reduction was needed, but I guess something along the -3dB marks would work well as a starting point.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Btw, I actually thought about having a luthier cut me some part of the back out, so I'd have easy access to the electrics

why not find out what you want with that piece of card board…and spend that money on a luthier playing it?

An experienced one should have no problem with it.

I’ve done it once on a hollow..sure it’s annoying…Lots of cursing..but its doable with some sewing thread.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Well, I just thought it'd be cool for future experiments to have a permanently accessible electric cavity.
But then, I think I'm already getting closer to what I may need - which basically boils down to lower the output of the neck pickup linearily.

 

[newholland]

id just pull it back down to the ring. ive always run neck pickups low with buckers to even em out with the bridge! i tend to like the sound of them more that way anyhow- but i dont use mine for lead type playing. i love the extra space you get out of them like that- and it makes for a cool tcharpy sounding middle position too.

 

[Sascha Franck]

id just pull it back down to the ring. ive always run neck pickups low with buckers to even em out with the bridge! i tend to like the sound of them more that way anyhow- but i dont use mine for lead type playing. i love the extra space you get out of them like that- and it makes for a cool tcharpy sounding middle position too.

The neck pickup is all the way down already. Still very loud.

 

[Cirrus]

The neck pickup is all the way down already. Still very loud.

Put the bridge pickup all the way up then! There's no time to lose! Think of the children!

 

[Sascha Franck]

Put the bridge pickup all the way up then!

Getting too harsh.

 

[Eagle]

Well, the neck pickup sounds great and warm - but it does have quite some brilliance/presence to it, too. Which is pretty nice once you do funky stuff and such.
The "brightness" isn't exactly my issue, anyway, it's really the higher mids coming through the bridge pickup. Those are defenitely there on the neck pickup, too - but in that case they help nicely to cut through and still do so even when you dial down the tone pot a bit.



Yeah, sort of guity as charged. Always thought that jazz boxes would be rather "warm", too (well, at least 2-3 decades ago...), but when you listen to old recordings, there's plenty of "sheen" on the guitars. What made them sound warm is likely a combination of neck pickup, amp and playing.
Which is also why the typical faux jazz sound of using pretty much any guitar, any neck pickup and then dial down the tone pot to some degree never sounds "authentic" at all. The real "wooden character" only comes through when there's a healthy amount of treble and high mids.
Just that those result in the bridge pickup choice to become an issue, even more so once the bridge pickup is close to the bridge.

Guess it had to take Malcolm Young to demonstrate how "sort-of-jazz-box-looking" things were actually great for some serious riffing.

Anyhow, I actually remember watching a video of someone who apparently had Gibson made a custom 335 (I absolutely don't remember whom it was, maybe @Eagle knows more) - and what they did was placing the bridge pickup around a centimeter closer to the neck.
This is actually something I considered for my Ibanez, as years of experimenting with pickup positions on my own demonstrated just how much of a difference such rather small differences can cause.
But then, if I would really go that way, I'd want it to be done properly - which would cost quite some money. So I rather fool around with the pickups and electrics first.



I will defenitely rip out the electrics somewhen in the next weeks (2 gigs to go before where I really want to use the guitar). I will then extend the pickup cables and build the entire circuit on a piece of cardboard. As said, I also want to fool around with a rotary c-switch, which always is a trial'n'error thing.

Btw, I actually thought about having a luthier cut me some part of the back out, so I'd have easy access to the electrics, but I fear to lose some acoustic properties. What would you say, @Eagle?

Cutting the back does change the acoustic tone slightly and may impact negatively on sustain and quality of the notes plugged in. Not really predictable though. I would fit some solderless connectors on the pickups and experiment with the electrics out of the instrument until you have something you are happy with.