So let's have this CAGED conversation...

[Sascha Franck]

As for country guys Albert Lee lives landing on the 6.

Sure - as said, there's exceptions. The 6th is pretty common in country. Yet, more often than not, lines are landing on the 3 "core" triad tones.

Hence lydian, Dorian etc not having avoid notes.

Exactly.

I'm not sure that Jazz players have an issue ending on one of the triad chord tones because all of them are literally one wholetone below the consonant extensions.

Well, I can't tell whether it's a genuine issue, but I have seen quite some decent jazz players not being that decent anymore once the underlying chords were no 7th chords anymore.

IOW, leaving out passing notes and alterations you're playing C lydian over C and end on d, f#, a, or b a whole step slide down will have you one the chord tone.

Sure. But you'll have to take that into account when playing lines. Country players just do it.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Nah, it's possible, really. It does depend on your definition of "position" though. Leavitt seems to define it kinda like the classical way, which would be:
- Position is defined by the fret below the one the middle finger is in. So, middle finger in 3rd fret means you're in 2nd position. The index finger isn't good to describe the position as it's allowed to stretch out.
- Index finger and pinky are allowed to strech out of position, middle and ring fingers are "anchored" at the same frets.
- For plain major scales, only pinky OR index finger stretch out per position.
- No finger plays two adjacent notes.

That way, you can really play all (ionian) major scales in one position. Or one scale in all positions.
Quite some of them don't make any sense, though. For instance: C major scale in 5th position is obvious, in 7th position as well, but you could as well play it in 6th position, hence your middle finger playing the C on the E strings. No sane person would ever play it like that (even if it looks like 3NPS on the D and G strings) but there's some etudes in the Leavitt books asking for these weird finger patterns.

By that definition yes but manDb and Gb in the 8th position are dumb.

 

[Chocol8]

- Position is defined by the fret below the one the middle finger is in. So, middle finger in 3rd fret means you're in 2nd position. The index finger isn't good to describe the position as it's allowed to stretch out.
- Index finger and pinky are allowed to strech out of position, middle and ring fingers are "anchored" at the same frets.
- For plain major scales, only pinky OR index finger stretch out per position.
- No finger plays two adjacent notes.

That's the type of rigid BS I wish I had learned less of. The correct finger to use is the one that makes sense for YOU in the context of where you are coming from and where you are going to. Not some stupid shit about these fingers can stretch and these stay fixed.

 

[Sascha Franck]

By that definition yes but manDb and Gb in the 8th position are dumb.

Of course. In a nutshell, out of 12 possible options, 5 are pretty bad. But still, that's what Leavitt wants you to deal with here and there. Maybe because of the academic value or perhaps just because of "we need to get along with anything we might be faced with!"

 

[Sascha Franck]

That's the type of rigid BS I wish I had learned less of. The correct finger to use is the one that makes sense for YOU in the context of where you are coming from and where you are going to. Not some stupid shit about these fingers can stretch and these stay fixed.

Well, I have not made these "rules" up, it's coming from the classical school of thought.
However, the definition of what position means is very useful (and kinda accurate), namely that the position is defined by the fret below the position of your middle finger. The playing instructions however are pretty much questionable - but as said, it comes from a way older school of throught and there's some sense behind it as well - just that it's not applicable for many situations today.

Also, on a sidenote: Leavitt, who has really put some thoughts in his books (and they're still pretty decent today partially), doesn't even seem to know about the existence of 3NPS scales. IIRC they only got popular along with shredding - and these days they're pretty much a stable in any style.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Of course. In a nutshell, out of 12 possible options, 5 are pretty bad. But still, that's what Leavitt wants you to deal with here and there. Maybe because of the academic value or perhaps just because of "we need to get along with anything we might be faced with!"

Well logically you should be able to start a scale on any finger but I see it as sets of 3 fingers.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Well, I have not made these "rules" up, it's coming from the classical school of thought.
However, the definition of what position means is very useful (and kinda accurate), namely that the position is defined by the fret below the position of your middle finger. The playing instructions however are pretty much questionable - but as said, it comes from a way older school of throught and there's some sense behind it as well - just that it's not applicable for many situations today.

Also, on a sidenote: Leavitt, who has really put some thoughts in his books (and they're still pretty decent today partially), doesn't even seem to know about the existence of 3NPS scales. IIRC they only got popular along with shredding - and these days they're pretty much a stable in any style.

Well I'll go with position is defined by index and it can stretch one fret lower. So 6 of the one a half dozen of the other

 

[Chocol8]

Well, I have not made these "rules" up, it's coming from the classical school of thought.
However, the definition of what position means is very useful (and kinda accurate), namely that the position is defined by the fret below the position of your middle finger. The playing instructions however are pretty much questionable - but as said, it comes from a way older school of throught and there's some sense behind it as well - just that it's not applicable for many situations today.

Also, on a sidenote: Leavitt, who has really put some thoughts in his books (and they're still pretty decent today partially), doesn't even seem to know about the existence of 3NPS scales. IIRC they only got popular along with shredding - and these days they're pretty much a stable in any style.

I am not blaming you, I just think it is a horrible way to learn or think about music and guitar. I definitely don't think of positions relative to where a finger is. To the extent that I think about position at all, it is relative to where my root notes are, which means it's defined by scale or chord, not fret number anyway. Maybe that's because guitar was my third instrument and not my first and only.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I definitely don't think of positions relative to where a finger is.

Me neither. It's really just a communication tool. And specifically useful for classical pieces where you have no TABs and need to figure out things just based on standard notation - and that sometimes needs some help, so position information is useful.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Well logically you should be able to start a scale on any finger but I see it as sets of 3 fingers.

As everyone these days does. But Mr. Leavitt has sometimes been, well, quite anal about all things accuracy. So he was possibly like "well, 7 positions isn't enough, let's cover all 12, that'll teach them suckers!"

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Nah, it's possible, really. It does depend on your definition of "position" though. Leavitt seems to define it kinda like the classical way, which would be:
- Position is defined by the fret below the one the middle finger is in. So, middle finger in 3rd fret means you're in 2nd position. The index finger isn't good to describe the position as it's allowed to stretch out.
- Index finger and pinky are allowed to strech out of position, middle and ring fingers are "anchored" at the same frets.
- For plain major scales, only pinky OR index finger stretch out per position.
- No finger plays two adjacent notes.

That way, you can really play all (ionian) major scales in one position. Or one scale in all positions.
Quite some of them don't make any sense, though. For instance: C major scale in 5th position is obvious, in 7th position as well, but you could as well play it in 6th position, hence your middle finger playing the C on the E strings. No sane person would ever play it like that (even if it looks like 3NPS on the D and G strings) but there's some etudes in the Leavitt books asking for these weird finger patterns.

So riddle me this.
By that logic C in the 13th position from low to high would be possible how?
E to F would be index if the middle/ring are anchored at 14/15. And that's a no go.
Then a and d string both would be index middle ring (12 14 15)
G string would be I m p (12 14 16)
B would be I r (13 15)
And high e would be same as low e ...I I r

That would negate the no successive notes per finger.
And as soon as you do e strings I m p it's 12th position.

 

[Dogboy]

When I was 11, I found a songbook in the bookshelf that had an acoustic guitar on the cover with all the natural notes labeled on the neck. So, I wrote the letters out in binder paper, cut them out, and Scotch taped them to the neck of my Moms Yamaha Classical guitar. 57 years later, my brain superimposes those notes on the neck of any guitar I’m playing. It didn’t take that long, and as I’ve previously stated, I’m a pretty dumb hillbilly. I cant imagine trying to play without knowing this most basic information.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

When I was 11, I found a songbook in the bookshelf that had an acoustic guitar on the cover with all the natural notes labeled on the neck. So, I wrote the letters out in binder paper, cut them out, and Scotch taped them to the neck of my Moms Yamaha Classical guitar. 57 years later, my brain superimposes those notes on the neck of any guitar I’m playing. It didn’t take that long, and as I’ve previously stated, I’m a pretty dumb hillbilly. I cant imagine trying to play without knowing this most basic information.

I still say knowing the notes on the board shouldn't even warrant a mention, sadly that's not the case.

I see it it every time I have one of my students play a c major scale one note per string ascending, using frets 1-12.
Starting on C low e string until it returns to the same note 72 notes later.

C Major Fretboard knowledge/visualisation exercise

Ascending C major scale one note per string only frets 1-12

www.soundslice.com

 

[Dogboy]

I still say knowing the notes on the board shouldn't even warrant a mention, sadly that's not the case.

I see it it every time I have one of my students play a c major scale one note per string ascending, using frets 1-12.
Starting on C low e string until it returns to the same note 72 notes later.

C Major Fretboard knowledge/visualisation exercise

Ascending C major scale one note per string only frets 1-12

www.soundslice.com

The Reddit guitar experts advise against knowing the notes on a guitar neck in lieu of studying the interval structures and just moving them around. While that info is essential, ignoring the note names redefines idiotic.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

The Reddit guitar experts advise against knowing the notes on a guitar neck in lieu of studying the interval structures and just moving them around. While that info is essential, ignoring the note names redefines idiotic.

I got no clue about Reddit.

But the scary part is the eyes over ears thing.
Like I said earlier, guys riding the F note on a C chord cause it's in the scale.

The thing I learned living in India was that learning to make a sound, say note c against drone Cand name it Sa (root or 1) goes a lot further than how we learn the guitar.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Copied the following from another forum from a killer player/teacher (Steve B)


I have students do this when we're working past open chords. Think of this as triad practice. It may seem rudimentary but it can really boost your visualizing of the shapes on the fingerboard. Start your interval work by identifying notes in these triad shapes as root, 3rd or 5th.

If you haven't done this already, take a simple 3 or 4 chord song like Knockin On Heaven's Door, and play it in G in the open position using the standard shapes. Now put the capo at the third fret and again play it in G but this time your first chord will be an open E shape. Figure out the remaining chords. Then capo to the fifth fret. Now the first chord is a D shape. Figure out the remaining chords. Continue up the neck. Try this with more complex tunes, maybe something like Wild World. Don't worry about trying to incorporate CAGED into soloing. Just get really grounded and clear about how all these shapes fit together on the fingerboard. Developing skill as an improvisor will build on this knowledge but it's not a theory you apply. And it's not enough to just understand the concept behind the movable shapes; you have to spend a bunch of time working with them so you begin to get ear/muscle memory around the common movements. Takes time but it's the way.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

So riddle me this.
By that logic C in the 13th position from low to high would be possible how?
E to F would be index if the middle/ring are anchored at 14/15. And that's a no go.
Then a and d string both would be index middle ring (12 14 15)
G string would be I m p (12 14 16)
B would be I r (13 15)
And high e would be same as low e ...I I r

That would negate the no successive notes per finger.
And as soon as you do e strings I m p it's 12th position.

Just dug out the Leavitt books. So he breaks his rules by stretching both index and pinky for that 13th position thing.
Making it 6th position for the 7 position guys or C shape running into A shape for the CAGED crowd.

Such nonsense. I mean literally all one needs if they wanna play by sight rather than sound is this...and it goes along with your 6 note pattern.

Courtesy of Randy Vincent (Julian Lage's teacher)

Let’s start with a “universal” scale fingering system that simplifies the fingerings into just three items that can be used to play all four scale types in all keys anywhere on the fingerboard (thus the term “universal”).

In classical theory scales are usually broken into two halves of four notes each called “tetrachords.”
A tetrachord placed on one string involves either a very long stretch or a serious position shift, but three notes placed on one string are fairly easy to reach, so we’ll use what will be called here “trichords.”

When looking at scales that follow our definition there are only three types of trichords that occur at all locations in all four scale types, so only three fingerboard patterns and three fingerings will be used.


This shows the three types of trichords played from the low G on the low E string.

The first is three notes forming two consecutive whole-steps. Since it is the start of a common major scale we’ll call it a Major trichord. It also starts a wholetone scale so an alternate name would be a Wholetone trichord.

The second is three notes forming a whole-step followed by
a half-step. It is the beginning of a minor scale, so named a Minor trichord, and the beginning of the whole-half diminished scale, so the alternate name could be Whole-half trichord.

The last oneis three notes forming a half-step followed by a whole-step. The Phrygian mode starts with this trichord, thus the name Phrygian trichord. An alternate name is Half-whole trichord.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Where CAGED comes in handy is parallel modes.
And by CAGED I mean knowing where your root in position is...

And while we're at it modes and how stuff is built be a lot easier if we'd start on Lydian...
As it is in the thing above because the midal differences is merely one note in succession.

As in Lydian has all natural note and a ♯4, lower that to a ♮4 and you get major.
Now all the 4th from that initial F♯ to F getting lowered.
The ♯4 of F is B so that becomes B♭ C mixo

Next the ♯4 of B♭ which is E gets lowered E♭
C Dorian.

Next A gets lowered to A♭
C aeolian

Next D to D♭
C phryg

Next G to G♭
C locrian

ONCE we have that Formula all altered major scales are literally going by the same logic.

Melodic minor…
Known as Ionian ♭3 or Dorian♮7
So the next mode will be either called Dorian♭2 or Phrygian ♮6

The reason why we end up mixing mode name with flats and sharps which is where lot of what mode is what confusion stems from is that we’d get Ionian ♯1 which makes the improv by sight easier but really makes little sense so we can it locrian ♭4 (super locrian as in everything except the root flatted).

Inversely we’d get Phrygian ♭1 for mode 3 so we use Lydian ♯5

Same hold true for the other 2 common parent scales.

Harmonic Major or Ionian ♭6,
then Dorian ♭5, Phrygian ♭4, Lydian ♭3 etc

And Harmonic minor or Aeolian ♮7
Next Locrian ♮6, Ionian ♯5, Dorian ♯4, Phrygian ♯3

 

[maguchi]

This is the way I learned my scales on classical nylon string guitar. The "Segovia scales". Of course that was in the last millennium and they may be using the Leavitt/Berklee scales now to teach classical guitar. Either way once you learn and internalize them, you kind of forget shapes and go by ear, muscle memory and ear/brain to finger connection.

 

[Eagle]

I just learned seven positions TNPS of major, melodic minor and harmonic minor .