Quality Control / Design Improvements / Cost

[FuzzyAce]

Yeah, not trying to single out Gibson exclusively, just what's coming to mind. Their more recent new offerings especially. That newer double-cut model is actually really cool, but imo they drop the ball with the banana headstock. That's a design error I think. Those were never that great of a headstock because the string pull over the nut isn't ideal, and it doesn't fit the body style that well either. Same with the Theodore. It's almost there though. Hopefully they'll expand on those ideas (or just refine) and take them further. Even the Firebird X had some potential but they overdid it with unnecessary design elements. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, just make a really good wheel.

 

[Aelred]

I imagine those in the day, arguing that the lack of dynamics from a harpsichord is expected behavior, not a bug.....and that the piano was far too complicated for everyday players.

Bach told Silbermann his pianoforte was lacking dynamics in the 1730's. He gave a later model a glowing recommendation - indeed, became Silbermann's agent for sales.

Not really much in the way of metal strings and frames etc available until the Industrial Revolution. You simply couldn't build a strong instrument until the technology made it possible. The tension of the new strings would warp or break an instrument without bracing. Many of the world's finest composers for the piano - Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert - never saw or touched a Steinway Concert Grand. The tech lags behind the creatives a little, maybe. By the time that tech is perfect, it's time for something novel.

No drum kits until the 20th C - and no electric guitar, bass or decent microphones generally available until after WWII and the leftover parts to make the instruments and the radios they were heard on in big, loud V8 cars.

The cheap guitars available to me in my youth were, at least in my memory, vastly inferior to those available today. I can't even remember a couple of brands until I purchased an Ibanez Roadstar II. As much as I would love a Murphy Lab Les Paul Custom and a 100w Marshall Stack, they just won't fit into my house or my budget.

At the price-point of a LP Studio, I thought the ESP a better option and value for me. I bought that and an Ultra Strat for about the cost of a LP Standard here - and glad I did because Fender are no longer stocked in numbers in my city today. Gretsch, Rickenbacker... forget those here.

I'm sure a Gibson plays differently to an ESP or PRS... but I need to win the lottery first. Technology and manufacturing have come a long way indeed, but noise pollution laws if nothing else forbids me from playing even my 1x12 Black Cat at any volume.

Market is odd - old duffers like me who like the sound of an electric guitar in a room but with no live venues have to make it myself - who may value nostalgia to young people looking for something that isn't for me at all. People are strange critters indeed.

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

 

[Sleezy E]

I'd love to meet the person that can correctly identify by hearing the LP every time, when played back to back.

 

[maguchi]

From a business perspective, Gibson has tried a few times in the past 50 years to be very creative and forward thinking in making new designs and it hasn’t worked. The new models don’t sell well while the old designs sell.

Makes sense that they decide to make what sells. Historically there’s not a lot of incentive for them to try to be innovative because they never see a return on that investment

100%

What I don't understand is why they don't try to design something really new for them.

It doesn't have to be revolutionary just new.

Yeah, not trying to single out Gibson exclusively, just what's coming to mind. Their more recent new offerings especially. That newer double-cut model is actually really cool, but imo they drop the ball with the banana headstock. That's a design error I think. Those were never that great of a headstock because the string pull over the nut isn't ideal, and it doesn't fit the body style that well either. Same with the Theodore. It's almost there though. Hopefully they'll expand on those ideas (or just refine) and take them further. Even the Firebird X had some potential but they overdid it with unnecessary design elements. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, just make a really good wheel.

Yeah Gibson stays pretty close to their traditional models. Might be that those are their best sellers, although I haven't searched for sales numbers of diffrent Gibson models. In the past 6 months they have come out with a couple of diffrent models, the Theodore and the Victory. Although those two aren't really new designs. The Theodore is based on a Gibson drawing from the '50s and the Victory is similar to a Gibson model from the '80s. The hockey stick headstock looks out of place with the body shape on both of these. If Gibson made some minor modifications to the headstock shape they would look a lot better.

Notwithstanding the headstock shape, I do want to get one a those Victory guitars. And I did get a Theodore 6 months ago. The Theodore is a little unusual looking and the headstock doesn't match the body shape. However it is really ergonomic, comfortable and sounds great with '57 Classic and '57 Classic + pickups and 1 volume and 1 tone knob. For a small compact guitar it can sound huge. I played a Victory in a store and it has quite a diffrent vibe to it than the Theodore. Hotter pickups, 24 frets and cutaways made for playing comfortably way up on the highest frets.

Although a single guitar is not an indicator of lack of QC problems or lack of cosmetic flaws, I din't see quality control or cosmetic issues with the Theodore I bought and I don't remember anything that jumped out at me on the one Victory I played in a store. YMMV.

 

[Eagle]

Shifting the target of the conversation a bit... I am curious why Strandberg seems to have such atrocious QC (and I'm not talking tooling marks, like serious playability issues). We all know that Cortek Indonesia is capable of producing pretty flawless instruments for half the price of most strandbergs. Does strandberg themselves set the bar that low? I tend to take a lot of internet QC with a pretty heavy grain of salt, but this forum is smaller and overall pretty trustworthy and even here theres been numerous accounts of issues even here. I have more than one IRL friend that's told be not to bother with strandberg because they've had major issues with theres. What gives

People are buying B stock and then complaining mostly. Strandberg has no more QC problems than most other companies in the price point but people seem to have a problem with £2k being MII by Cort so the internet is full of descriptions of minor issues that are being amplified by the assumption that they are overpriced.

 

[Eagle]

A huge number of so-called QC issues happen AFTER they leave the factory. Neck misalignment and fret sprouting are the main two. Both of these problems should be addressed by the retailer on unpacking the instrument but most shops have little to no margin and no competent technicians so it goes out. Also expectations are totally unrealistic in this industry adding to the fact that wood varies and end users do too.
I once had a player complain about intonation and buzz that was entirely him. He wanted to know why it sounded fine when I played it
You can put a POS in the hands of a great player and it will sound good. Get the fret job reasonable and it can even feel good. The Larry Carlton Sire is an example of utter garbage with playability.
Value for money is an interesting subject because most cheap stuff is not value, quite the opposite.

 

[Eagle]

On the Gibson Les Paul;
I love the sound and the look but hate everything else about them, playing them sat down is terrible and the head design just doesn’t work in any way. I feel far more comfortable with my PRS that I put Throbaks 101s in. Does it sound like a Les Paul ?No, but I am ok with it and I can actually play it sat down. I have owned about 20 over the years everything from late 60s to R9 but they end up unplayed in their case . Then if a great deal comes along they will be the first thing out. I should have kept one but the best ones I played are not in the price I am prepared to pay for a guitar I know I will hardly play. Fortunately for me I get to play Les Paul’s all the time including 50s originals so I don’t miss out. I don’t rule out another but it would have to be extremely good and a great deal. The other good thing is they hold value better than almost any guitar. I should have picked up a 52 when nobody else was interested and they cost less than an R7 (not that long ago). I like the neck angle better and you can get a retro fit bridge that fixes the underside stringing.

 

[Eagle]

Oh and an answer to;
What company NEVER puts out an instrument with a fault?
The closest to that is Collings and Aristides. Never seen anything on either brand. I’m not saying they don’t exist but I have never seen or heard of it.

 

[HotRats]

On the Gibson Les Paul;
I love the sound and the look but hate everything else about them, playing them sat down is terrible and the head design just doesn’t work in any way. I feel far more comfortable with my PRS that I put Throbaks 101s in. Does it sound like a Les Paul ?No, but I am ok with it and I can actually play it sat down. I have owned about 20 over the years everything from late 60s to R9 but they end up unplayed in their case . Then if a great deal comes along they will be the first thing out. I should have kept one but the best ones I played are not in the price I am prepared to pay for a guitar I know I will hardly play. Fortunately for me I get to play Les Paul’s all the time including 50s originals so I don’t miss out. I don’t rule out another but it would have to be extremely good and a great deal. The other good thing is they hold value better than almost any guitar. I should have picked up a 52 when nobody else was interested and they cost less than an R7 (not that long ago). I like the neck angle better and you can get a retro fit bridge that fixes the underside stringing.

yeah, guitars are like women, being pretty is not enough for a long term relationship.

I love how strats sound and look in the hands of some players but I really hate them in my hands. I tried to love mine for more than a decade but ended up selling her.

 

[Eagle]

On cost of an instrument;
A £1k guitar will leave the factory at about half that and cost around half that again to make so margins here are pretty low compared with other sectors
The big costs are labour and third party branded components. This is why MIM Fender brands are fantastic value because they use top shelf components and quality materials. You do need to cherry pick but nothing comes close for genuine value.

 

[HotRats]

Yeah Gibson stays pretty close to their traditional models. Might be that those are their best sellers, although I haven't searched for sales numbers of diffrent Gibson models. In the past 6 months they have come out with a couple of diffrent models, the Theodore and the Victory. Although those two aren't really new designs. The Theodore is based on a Gibson drawing from the '50s and the Victory is similar to a Gibson model from the '80s. The hockey stick headstock looks out of place with the body shape on both of these. If Gibson made some minor modifications to the headstock shape they would look a lot better.

Notwithstanding the headstock shape, I do want to get one a those Victory guitars. And I did get a Theodore 6 months ago. The Theodore is a little unusual looking and the headstock doesn't match the body shape. However it is really ergonomic, comfortable and sounds great with '57 Classic and '57 Classic + pickups and 1 volume and 1 tone knob. For a small compact guitar it can sound huge. I played a Victory in a store and it has quite a diffrent vibe to it than the Theodore. Hotter pickups, 24 frets and cutaways made for playing comfortably way up on the highest frets.

Although a single guitar is not an indicator of lack of QC problems or lack of cosmetic flaws, I din't see quality control or cosmetic issues with the Theodore I bought and I don't remember anything that jumped out at me on the one Victory I played in a store. YMMV.

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there's nothing wrong with these new models but, as you said, they are not really new.
they can do better imho.

 

[Eagle]

yeah, guitars are like women, being pretty is not enough for a long term relationship.

I love how strats sound and look in the hands of some players but I really hate them in my hands. I tried to love mine for more than a decade but ended up selling her.

A Strat with a flat fingerboard and big frets is very ergonomic. What model did you not get along with and why?

 

[HotRats]

A Strat with a flat fingerboard and big frets is very ergonomic. What model did you not get along with and why?

Was not about ergonomics but sound, basically is not what I look for when I play live.

Is not my sound and I don't care about mimicking an original tone when I play covers anymore.

 

[Eagle]

Was not about ergonomics but sound, basically is not what I look for when I play live.

Is not my sound and I don't care about mimicking an original tone when I play covers anymore.

With the variety of pickups available I’m surprised that was enough to not own a Strat.

 

[Jarick]

IMO, import guitars that are around and over the $1000 mark and USA guitars over the $1500 mark should not have any significant issues including finish or functionality. They should all be setup reasonably well out of the box and not have to require extensive modifications unless it's a personal preference thing (like different pickups).

For USA guitars, I generally feel like the $1000-1500 is more of a "budget" guitar that should be sturdy and well built but is likely stripped down, such as satin finishes or more basic features. Over the $2000 mark is when the quality should be very high with excellent fit and finish and quality pickups and electronics.

 

[Aelred]

Not being able to check out a guitar in person due to availability means we may have to rely on Factory and Retail QC online. So online opinions and reputations may be increasingly relevant to purchases in the future. It depends on location: if you can get to a store with hundreds in stock and check them out that’s fantastic – but not my circumstance or geography.

Returning an unsatisfactory instrument purchased online is also a major hassle and potential cost in such circumstances. And as consumers we may have increasingly unrealistic expectations of online service – I order it with a click and a drone-bot drops it at my doorstep in 100% perfect condition in every detail. Expecting a $300 instrument to be as good as a $3000 is another issue entirely.

Way back in the old days, we in Australia pined for Made in Japan Stratocasters, as we figured the USA were dumping all their bad stock here and charging full price. It happened a lot in Australia, or at least we thought it did – and perceptions can matter. Ibanez and Yamaha were considered good instruments/brands here for many years.

 

[HotRats]

With the variety of pickups available I’m surprised that was enough to not own a Strat.

I just prefer my Les Pauls and don't like to keep instruments I don't use.

 

[maguchi]

The thing that gets complicated is that playability and sound are subjective. For example some people find chunky neck heels to be a design flaw, others don’t care

^^^Yes that's another angle to the conversation. It's not quality control or design flaws when the design is intentional. I suppose a 14 frets free of the body semi-hollow or hollowbody is not using or lacking design improvements that have been used by other guitars since the 1950s.

If a player wants or needs a certain sound and look for rockabilly, big band or old school blues gigs, they may prefer something like a Gretsch or Epiphone with only 14 frets free of the body. (I intentionally ommited Gibson to keep my post on topic.)

The Gretsches do sound and play amazing, and their "Players Edition" series make some changes in neck angle that gives a more modern feel to the guitars. However upper fret access is nowhere near what you get with even a Tele. But nothing sounds and looks like a Gretsch. And yes, the looks as well as sound are important for certain gigs. Sometimes you are hired and told that a certain period correct visual is expected for the audience.

 

[Eagle]

I just prefer my Les Pauls and don't like to keep instruments I don't use.

The best reason for selling gear.