Practicing Riffs Backwards?

[TSJMajesty]

In the context of strict alt-picking, I'm much more comfortable starting on a downstroke, keeping my pick slanted downward, and using an upward escape when changing strings.

So one of the most challenging things for me, when playing 3 n.p.s. riffs such as triplets, is catching the 4th note accurately, since it occurs on an upstroke, and on a new string.

I also have trouble with any riff that requires changing the pick slant within the riff. It feels like if, say I was playing tennis, and instead of always using my right hand to hold the racket, I'd switch to my left hand if the ball was coming towards me on the left side of my body. I'm right-handed, so that would feel quite unnatural to me.

Obviously no one plays tennis like that, but when I need to do anything while picking, that requires the upstrokes to be the focus, like accents, even if briefly, it's somewhat awkward.

Like if I play a simple riff like the bridge section in Still of the Night by Whitesnake, that whole riff is double notes, so it's most comfortable for me to play it starting with a downstroke, keeping the pick slanted downward. So I figured, why not reverse the picking pattern?

I'd start on a upstroke, and in order to escape to get to a new string, the pick angle needs to be an upward slant. Which is totally not natural for me. But I think it's a good way to practice something like this, in hopes of becoming just as fluid with those motions, as I am with the other way.

So my question is, does anyone else find these types of weaknesses in their playing, and deliberately practice something in an opposite way to their "normal" way of playing it, with the goal of getting just as good doing it this way? I can see this sort of approach having all sorts of benefits to one's technique and abilities.

Here's the riff I mentioned:

 

[mavrick102000]

I believe only a small percentage of players can smoothly transition between a downward or upward pick slant. Most have a more natural preference.

It can be practiced, and become a bit more comfortable (for lack of a better term). But most players will have a more natural tendency to prefer one way more so than the other and then adapt as best they can.

Sometimes that adaptation can create an opportunity for developing your own personal style and sound.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Sometimes that adaptation can create an opportunity for developing your own personal style and sound.

Good point.

 

[mavrick102000]

I had another thought. What you describe might be an opportunity to leverage hybrid picking, with either your middle or ring finger on your picking hand. It would give you enough time to reset your pick attack for the next note in the sequence and continue.

Once you get used to it even the most basic usage of hybrid picking feels like cheating.

 

[DrewJD82]

I know I spent some time with this exact context in the past, probably because my uncle telling me that starting everything with an upstroke would hinder me in the future. I’ve yet to see evidence of that and would argue it’s worked in my favor because it often made me play ‘inside the strings’ as Petrucci put it on Rock Discipline. It was probably when that vid was my holy grail that I spent the most time on it.

Just now I just tried going back and forth between downstrokes and upstrokes when starting a run, I think if anything I probably worked more on economy of motion in my right hand that negated the need to really think about starting with an up or down stroke; it looks like I get the pick up and over the string with enough clearance to make it to the next one, regardless if I start with an up or down stroke. I couldn’t find any kind of pattern in what I’m doing so I have to assume my hand just goes for whatever is going to get me there when I need to.

I also realized that I barely have any of the pick sticking out of my fingers, I choke back on it quite a bit.

Hahahah I figured if I can't articulate it in words I'd make a video but I fail at articulating it even more in this, but it gives an example of what I'm talking about somewhere in that mess of stupid-

 

[the-trooper]

So my question is, does anyone else find these types of weaknesses in their playing

Yes, unlike you I'm a natural upward pick slanter so 3 notes per string that you described, where the next one is on a new string with an upstroke, is a no issue for me. But if I there are 4 notes and I end with an upstroke and have to change strings, especially to the string above, that's a problem.

and deliberately practice something in an opposite way to their "normal" way of playing it

Nope, I practice fast runs with that technique with which you clear the string no matter which way you end up, Steve Morse way of playing that's dissected in one of Troy Gradys videos.
The problem is, that's not something that just naturally comes to me so I have to practice each run that requires it, meaning I can't just pull it out of my ass and play something shred fast on the spot if I haven't practiced it before. I can "fake" it, but it won't be clean. Solution would most certainly be practice more, but:

 

[TSJMajesty]

Most every challenging riff I practice has about an equal number of string changes after an upstroke as after a downstroke, so to me, unless you use economy picking to help out (which I do some), I don't see an advantage to having a natural downward pick angle or upward, or having a tendency to start riffs on a downstroke or an upstroke, unless you're always doing riffs that contain an even number of notes per string.

I have to sort of consciously hold the pick at a bit more backward slant than feels natural to me. Otherwise I tend to "trip" over the string when doing an outside change. But inside string changes are much easier for me.

Oh and speaking of Steve Morse, he has a way of rolling his wrist to help his string escapes. Which is about the most efficient motion I've encountered.

 

[duzie]

Speaking of using upstrokes to start phrases/ licks …
Michael mixes up his picking to great effect !

 

[la szum]

Man, I don't know what the answer is. For me, I would say, "No."

I tried so many different picking techniques back in the day, and have ultimately
come to realize that there are a dozen different ways to skin the "best way to pick" cat

I could never adapt to the Gilbert method of strict alternate picking. It just felt cumbersome
to me no matter how much I worked at it. Economy picking just seems to make more
logical sense, due to that fact that there is actually less movement of the pick. But then
how do you accent phrases properly? I get why Gilbert does that alternate picking
method, because then he can start with a downstroke on the downbeat. Rhythmically,
it makes perfect sense. But then I can't jump to a lower or higher adjacent string with that
dreaded downstroke or upstroke respectively, just to stick to the strict alternate picking
propaganda.

I have my own bastardized approach (economy picking with hybrid picking) and have pretty
much given up on speed and technique anyways.

Probably shouldn't even be replying here.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Man, I don't know what the answer is. For me, I would say, "No."

I tried so many different picking techniques back in the day, and have ultimately
come to realize that there are a dozen different ways to skin the "best way to pick" cat

I could never adapt to the Gilbert method of strict alternate picking. It just felt cumbersome
to me no matter how much I worked at it. Economy picking just seems to make more
logical sense, due to that fact that there is actually less movement of the pick. But then
how do you accent phrases properly? I get why Gilbert does that alternate picking
method, because then he can start with a downstroke on the downbeat. Rhythmically,
it makes perfect sense. But then I can't jump to a lower or higher adjacent string with that
dreaded downstroke or upstroke respectively, just to stick to the strict alternate picking
propaganda.

I have my own bastardized approach (economy picking with hybrid picking) and have pretty
much given up on speed and technique anyways.

Probably shouldn't even be replying here.

Wrote a thread about it; here it go!

 

[jay mitchell]

IMO it's not terribly productive to focus strictly on linear scale practice once you know the fingerings. For one thing, playing scale notes in sequence is for most players the easiest skill to develop and is therefore the one that least needs practice. For another, most actual music does not consist of scale tones played in linear sequence. 3nps fingerings may or may not be the best choice for any given passage you're working on. There are considerations other than picking speed that will tend to favor different fingerings. And strict alternate picking may or may not be best for a specific passage. What's most beneficial is to develop sufficient skill that you have options that you can tailor to the music you're playing.

In response to the question in the OP, my recommendation is to devote practice time - as opposed to musical exploration or noodling time, both of which are valuable as well - on the aspects of your playing that are most in need of practice. IOW, practice what you do worst, and focus on improving those things.

If you want to derive maximum benefit from picking practice, one thing you can do is to play exercises using all downstrokes and then all upstrokes. This is advice Bill Leavitt gives in his Method for Modern Guitar, the text used at Berklee. Focus on making the piece you're playing sound the same and on achieving the same maximum tempo both ways. After a few passes through a piece, when you go back to alternate picking, you may surprise yourself at how easy that has become. You will also gain a new appreciation for guitarists like Charlie Christian who played mostly with downstrokes.

Other challenging exercises include skipping one or more strings from one note to the next. A lot of the music I play (or try to play) requires this.

 

[Eagle]

I do down slanting economy when possible for string changing but not super strict. All the pieces that throw me are played by up slanters.
Even Frank Gambale seems to default to up slanted string switching and many of his pieces need to be played with this assumption.
Unfortunately I never made this decision I just developed this over years and it has a significant effect on what I find easy to play.
The thing that helps me the most is practicing 2 and 4 notes per string with up slanting. This feels alien as hell but it's all good.

 

[Gearzilla]

It probably shows, but I never think about the pick slant.

 

[Eagle]

In the context of strict alt-picking, I'm much more comfortable starting on a downstroke, keeping my pick slanted downward, and using an upward escape when changing strings.

So one of the most challenging things for me, when playing 3 n.p.s. riffs such as triplets, is catching the 4th note accurately, since it occurs on an upstroke, and on a new string.

I also have trouble with any riff that requires changing the pick slant within the riff. It feels like if, say I was playing tennis, and instead of always using my right hand to hold the racket, I'd switch to my left hand if the ball was coming towards me on the left side of my body. I'm right-handed, so that would feel quite unnatural to me.

Obviously no one plays tennis like that, but when I need to do anything while picking, that requires the upstrokes to be the focus, like accents, even if briefly, it's somewhat awkward.

Like if I play a simple riff like the bridge section in Still of the Night by Whitesnake, that whole riff is double notes, so it's most comfortable for me to play it starting with a downstroke, keeping the pick slanted downward. So I figured, why not reverse the picking pattern?

I'd start on a upstroke, and in order to escape to get to a new string, the pick angle needs to be an upward slant. Which is totally not natural for me. But I think it's a good way to practice something like this, in hopes of becoming just as fluid with those motions, as I am with the other way.

So my question is, does anyone else find these types of weaknesses in their playing, and deliberately practice something in an opposite way to their "normal" way of playing it, with the goal of getting just as good doing it this way? I can see this sort of approach having all sorts of benefits to one's technique and abilities.

Here's the riff I mentioned:

On TNPS paterns why not ecomoy pick, so V^VV. Always switch strings with pick direction or after the escape stroke. I know sometimes this doesn't work out but it does let you know how it was done. Basically if it doesn't flow it wasn't played like that.

 

[TSJMajesty]

On TNPS paterns why not ecomoy pick, so V^VV. Always switch strings with pick direction or after the escape stroke. I know sometimes this doesn't work out but it does let you know how it was done. Basically if it doesn't flow it wasn't played like that.

Short answer: It's not worth it.

Long- I don't play many passages that stay strictly 3 n.p.s. Between position shifts, changing between ascending and descending etc., it's just not that simple to say- just economy pick. Every time you economy pick, your motions flip. So to me, it doesn't accomplish much.

Plus, economy picking means you have to pause your mechanics every time you do a double stroke. That's extremely unnatural. So unless you started practicing that type of motion at a young age, I don't see it happening.

At least with alt-picking, it's just a matter of training your wrist to make ever so slight angle changes at the right time, which I find much easier.

I can play various types of different pattern sextuplet riffs at about 110 bpm, and 16th note riffs around 155, that involve outside & inside string changes, position shifts, going back and forth between 2 adjacent strings when the riff transitions between directions, and at that pace, keeping all that stuff straight and accurate is just much easier if my picking motion remains down/up.

I think a lot of people revert to this suggestion, but when they go to actually try it in a challenging riff, they find (at least I do) that it adds a different set of challenges to overcome. Oh and I have tried to economy-pick a lot of the types of riffs that I play.

If it's 3 notes on adjacent strings, then yeah, I'll do it that way (like the beginning to the solo in Pat Benatar's Hit Me With Your Best Shot, e.g.) But that's all I find it useful for.

Oh and it was also mentioned to use the other type of economy picking, where you use a finger of your picking hand to "pluck" a string, like John 5 does. That's another one of those picking methods I find too difficult to learn at my age. But I do see how it can be useful.

 

[Eagle]

I got completely comfortable economy picking The Paul Gilbert exercise plus ascending fours on TNPS before I knew what it was. The first time my picking failed to work out was Eugene’s trick bag on the Paganini part. It just acts like a break.

 

[TSJMajesty]

I got completely comfortable economy picking The Paul Gilbert exercise plus ascending fours on TNPS before I knew what it was. The first time my picking failed to work out was Eugene’s trick bag on the Paganini part. It just acts like a break.

Using that Pat Benatar lick as an example...

I tried at first to play it economy, so it would be D D D U D U U D U D U

That first rake/mini-sweep I have no trouble with. But switching from the down/up/down/up motion to play the next 2 notes as upstrokes just messed up my timing.
So I kept playing the first 3 notes as a sweep, but then just did the rest of the lick as alternate. It was much easier to get it up to speed that way. And quicker!

If it's a fairly repetitive, linear lick, ok, economy can work well. But with most licks, there's just too much variation for me to keep switching between the 2 techniques.

And there will usually be one part of the riff that works as economy, but as soon as you do it, then you're forced to do the next part as alt.

Something like this: (Ignore the slurs; it's all picked)

I found economy just trades one benefit for making another section harder. The last beat of the measure works well for economy, but again, since it throws off my timing, I find it easier to just play the whole thing strictly alternate.

I have found, overall, for the few licks that would work well (enough) economy-picked, I have to put in an awful lot of extra metronome time, starting out much slower, and the gains I get seem to take forever, that I find it just not worth it.

Had I started practicing picked licks this way 30 years ago, I'd feel differently, I'm sure.

3 years ago, prior to getting a Majesty and then an Axe III, I could barely play a 16th-note riff at 110 bpm. So to have improved as much as I have, at this late in the game, I'm happy as the proverbial pig-in-sh!t. Plus, building up my legato technique is more important to me than exploring a picking variation, cuz my legato still needs more attention! #Priorities

 

[Joshual-L]

I know I spent some time with this exact context in the past, probably because my uncle telling me that starting everything with an upstroke would hinder me in the future. I’ve yet to see evidence of that and would argue it’s worked in my favor because it often made me play ‘inside the strings’ as Petrucci put it on Rock Discipline. It was probably when that vid was my holy grail that I spent the most time on it.

Just now I just tried going back and forth between downstrokes and upstrokes when starting a run, I think if anything I probably worked more on economy of motion in my right hand that negated the need to really think about starting with an up or down stroke; it looks like I get the pick up and over the string with enough clearance to make it to the next one, regardless if I start with an up or down stroke. I couldn’t find any kind of pattern in what I’m doing so I have to assume my hand just goes for whatever is going to get me there when I need to.

I also realized that I barely have any of the pick sticking out of my fingers, I choke back on it quite a bit.

Hahahah I figured if I can't articulate it in words I'd make a video but I fail at articulating it even more in this, but it gives an example of what I'm talking about somewhere in that mess of stupid-

I also noticed a change of the angle of your wrist like if you were sweeping from high strings to low strings and a change in your thumb position.