OK, experts... Please tell me what gain is. I've been playing for almost 50 years and have no clue...

[bukowski]

Hello all,

I know this is a cringe type post, but it occurred to me that I really have no idea what "gain" is. My bad ! I always thought it was a secondary volume control, at least that's how I use it....I'm not a technical type, I just like to find a tone I like, and play. I don't obsess over all the details..

Reading my Mesa Boogie Lonestar manual (for the 20th time) it explains that gain has a huge impact on tone.... So, I cranked it up and YEP, it really changes things.

My main amp has a gain knob, master knob, and output knob when the effects loop is on... So, as silly as I am, I always viewed Gain as volume (it acts like volume) Master as the "master volume" and Output as another volume... Yes, three volume knobs, none of them labeled as "volume"...

So, I'm the student--- sitting right in front of the class--- I'm taking notes ! Please school me....

Side note: In all these years, gain is something I've thought of on overdrive pedals... I've used "gain" to mean distortion/overdrive. I never really put that much thought into it. Gain is something on a overdrive pedal !


Here is why I always viewed gain as "drive" or distortion..... Is gain just a boost? Why is a boost different than volume ! I'm so confused !

 

[FuzzyAce]

The simple way to think of it is - pre gain and post gain. Gain can mean volume, volume can mean gain. Different circuits behave um, differently, some may have more distortion and clipping (and types of clipping) while others not as much. EQ, active or not, also plays a role in gain.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Your input stage usually a 12ax7 tube has a gain rating of 100 so whatever you put in by way of turn the first volume/gain/preamp control gets amplified by 100.

Just like in non master volume amps the more you crank the volume the more it breaks up.

Now with modern amps with cascading gain stages you keep amping up the gain.
The amplification factor of the Millicent you send in from guitar.

 

[Fireproof]

In simple terms - think of it this way...

GAIN is how "hard" you hit the sound.
VOLUME is how "loud" you hear the sound.

Turning up gain increases the input strength of the signal which can result in more distortion, saturation, etc.

Versus volume just controls the output loudness without really changing the tone.ou can

Edit to include:
- And yes, you can turn the volume up so much that it pushes the tubes and speakers so much it distorts. But that requires high volume. Gain allows you to get a overdriven sound at lower volumes.

 

[bukowski]

The simple way to think of it is - pre gain and post gain. Gain can mean volume, volume can mean gain. Different circuits behave um, differently, some may have more distortion and clipping (and types of clipping) while others not as much. EQ, active or not, also plays a role in gain.

OK, I "kinda" get this and this is the way I've viewed it to some degree... If I'm hearing you right, its a Pre volume and final volume. The "Pre volume effects tone more, the final volume not as much?

How is this different than a boost that cranks up volume to the guitar input? Isn't boost the same thing as gain?

 

[Frodebro]

OK, I "kinda" get this and this is the way I've viewed it to some degree... If I'm hearing you right, its a Pre volume and final volume. The "Pre volume effects tone more, the final volume not as much?

How is this different than a boost that cranks up volume to the guitar input? Isn't boost the same thing as gain?

Technically, gain is the term used for signal strength. It has become interchangeable with distortion for guitar amps, but that’s not really the actual definition of the word.

 

[bukowski]

In simple terms - think of it this way...

GAIN is how "hard" you hit the sound.
VOLUME is how "loud" you hear the sound.

Turning up gain increases the input strength of the signal which can result in more distortion, saturation, etc.

Versus volume just controls the output loudness without really changing the tone.ou can

Edit to include:
- And yes, you can turn the volume up so much that it pushes the tubes and speakers so much it distorts. But that requires high volume. Gain allows you to get a overdriven sound at lower volumes.

I get that anything, even solid state will distort when pushed to certain limits.... Not worrying so much about "clipping" now. I'm just trying to understand what gain is. Thank you for the explanation though, this explains why "gain" on the DOD 250 is more of a clipping knob...I'm with you (a bit)

But I'm seriously confused...

Gain seems to me to be a boost at the pre amp? I thought all volume was set by the pre amp? At least thats how it works with Audio gear, you have a pre amp (volume) and a power amp... There is no volume on a power amp in High End Audio... Its all taken care of by the pre amp.

So, I'm confused. Is there a volume knob on the pre amp (gain) and another volume increase somewhere at the power amp?

I need to take a basic electronics course---maybe build my own tube amp to learn from. I'm just a guitarist, not an electronics prefessional..(thats for sure!)

(thinking, while posting this)---- Boosting my Diamond compressor volume is pre boosting the pre amp? Pre- pre?

 

[bukowski]

Technically, gain is the term used for signal strength. It has become interchangeable with distortion for guitar amps, but that’s not really the actual definition of the word.

So, boost is signal strength... If I take my Diamond Compressor and crank the volume, in effect that is gain? Yes, the definitions are killing me... Its different on all of my amps !

Please note: The Lonestar is by far the most confusing... All my other amps have "definitions" I can understand much more clearly. Example, my Deluxe Reverb. It has a volume control and tone controls. Nice and simple...

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

So, I'm confused. Is there a volume knob on the pre amp (gain) and another volume increase somewhere at the power amp?

master volume increases or decreases the overall output level of your pedal or amp...
independent channel volume(s) increase or decrease the output level of channels / balances levels between channels, before hitting the power amp.

A gain control, typically adjusts the strength of your input signal (guitar > amp) - often resulting in more or less break up, dirt or distortion, and then to hear it louder / quieter, see channel or master volumes to increase or decrease loudness.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Yeah the terms can be confusing. Look at it all as "amplification" along a path cascading into one another in most cases. There can be volume controls all along that path at different junctions to control gain/level/distortion/volume (whatever term is used by different brands). Each control will affect the outcome. The final control, end of chain, is typically called a Master ____.

 

[bukowski]

A gain control, typically adjusts the strength of your input signal (guitar > amp) - often resulting in more or less break up, dirt or distortion, and then to hear it louder / quieter, see channel or master volumes to increase or decrease loudness.

OK. With you here. But a boost pedal also does this right? Does this mean that if I use a boost pedal, I am adding another gain knob to my Lonestar? Is it different in anyway? (obviously the circuitry is different).....

Gain knob?

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

On a very clean amp / clean channel, input gain may also seem like it adjusts the ''output volume'', but turning past 4 or 5 on the input gain, and you will probably start to notice the tone has become more compressed, possibly slightly distorted. If you like that setting, you can then bring your output level back down a bit to suit the situation, balance everything out.

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

OK. With you here. But a boost pedal also does this right? Does this mean that if I use a boost pedal, I am adding another gain knob to my Lonestar? Is it different in anyway? (obviously the circuitry is different).....

Gain knob?

View attachment 55334

yes, a 'boost' pedal allows you to add an extra gain stage to the front of your amp
very convenient in many cases

it can increase or decrease the input level going into your amp, which allows a handy boost or even cut in some cases, sometimes that means more or less distortion if the amp is set up that way

 

[bukowski]

Yeah the terms can be confusing. Look at it all as "amplification" along a path cascading into one another in most cases. There can be volume controls all along that path at different junctions to control gain/level/distortion/volume (whatever term is used by different brands). Each control will affect the outcome. The final control, end of chain, is typically called a Master ____.

Yep, I think it's the terms that are getting to me (or definitions)... Drive, Gain, Volume can all be different depending on the amp manufacturer (or pedal).... Shame we don't follow standard protocols. It can be really confusing.

 

[bukowski]

yes, a 'boost' pedal allows you to add an extra gain stage to the front of your amp
very convenient in many cases

it can increase or decrease the input level going into your amp, which allows a handy boost or even cut in some cases, sometimes that means more or less distortion if the amp is set up that way

Thanks---- but is it in anyway different than the gain knob in my amp....Boosting the signal to the input jack, vs turning up my Gain (pre amp)?

I'm getting a headache.... Might have to delete this post ! Boy do I feel silly

 

[bukowski]

No deletes on this forum.... Ouch, your stuck with this...

Anyway, I appreciate all the advice all. Might be time to take a few classes or head to the library to read up on amplification and electronics.

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

You could maybe watch a few videos covering these topics... I think ''that pedal show'' youtube channel might be a good start:
(I've linked a search result of their channel with the word ''boost'').

That Pedal Show

That Pedal Show is dedicated to anyone and everyone with an interest in great guitar sounds. Our main focus is effects pedals, but that also means a lot of talk about amps, guitars and everything else that goes in to making fantastic tones. You can expect demos and comparisons of new and...

www.youtube.com

 

[FuzzyAce]

OK. With you here. But a boost pedal also does this right? Does this mean that if I use a boost pedal, I am adding another gain knob to my Lonestar? Is it different in anyway? (obviously the circuitry is different).....

Gain knob?

View attachment 55334

Yeah, it's basically another gain control. But it will react differently depending on what's next inline. Just because you hit that boost doesn't mean the overall level/volume(dB) will go up. It may just add more distortion to the next stage for better or worse, it depends on the amp design too.

 

[bukowski]

You could maybe watch a few videos covering these topics... I think ''that pedal show'' youtube channel might be a good start:
(I've linked a search result of their channel with the word ''boost'').

That Pedal Show

That Pedal Show is dedicated to anyone and everyone with an interest in great guitar sounds. Our main focus is effects pedals, but that also means a lot of talk about amps, guitars and everything else that goes in to making fantastic tones. You can expect demos and comparisons of new and...

www.youtube.com

I watch these guys all the time, never thought to look into boosts... I see many video's there covering this topic. I know too well these guys go into super detail, sometimes an hour long .... Great tip, thank you.

I've even considered the D&M drive, it has a pedal combination I know I would love. I just can't get over how ugly the pedal is... Orange with cartoon faces of Dave and Mic... I know pedal appearance means little but....

Maybe I can paint it.. (note two gain knobs !)

 

[deadpool_25]

Very generally speaking and a simplified but adequate way to look at it in the context of modern guitar amps and pedals:

Gain (or pre gain) is distortion. It exists in the preamp section of the amp. Because of how it works it also increases overall volume.

Volume (or post gain) makes things louder, generally without adding much distortion. With that said, you can turn the volume knob up enough to drive the power tubes enough that they start clipping (distorting) a bit. For tube amps, if the volume is turned up enough that the power section is significantly distorted, it will be very loud. Think Marshall Plexi.

Again this is vastly simplified but it’s a pretty solid way to start.