Here’s how stupid I can be

[KingsXJJ]

I always thought that tube amps cranked sounded lively and brighter. But what I’ve noticed with Fender’s Master Series is that the higher the attenuation the darker they sound. Counterintuitive to me somewhat but hey, what do I know? Seems pretty consistent though. From the the TM Deluxe through the TM Twin now to the TM Super Reverb. Across 10’s and 12’s inchers. Knowing Fender, it’s not a mistake but more likely accurate. I wasn’t expecting that at all! I guess it makes sense but not what I would have guessed. Just goes to showI suppose that one never knows…. Happy surprise in my case!

 

[LeftyLoungeLizard]

I always thought that tube amps cranked sounded lively and brighter. But what I’ve noticed with Fender’s Master Series is that the higher the attenuation the darker they sound. Counterintuitive to me somewhat but hey, what do I know? Seems pretty consistent though. From the the TM Deluxe through the TM Twin now to the TM Super Reverb. Across 10’s and 12’s inchers. Knowing Fender, it’s not a mistake but more likely accurate. I wasn’t expecting that at all! I guess it makes sense but not what I would have guessed. Just goes to showI suppose that one never knows…. Happy surprise in my case!

That has always seemed to be the case with attenuation.

The problem is, the more you attenuate, the more you literally compress the tone... squashing the hi's and low's until at extreme attenuation levels you're left with nothing but a mouse fart tone.

 

[Mongillo19]

Yeah I would say increased attenuation would chop off the highs for sure.

 

[MatrixClaw]

Yes, definitely accurate. Turning an amp up into power tube saturation always rounds out the tone. You get the perception of more lows as the power amp starts to break up and loosen the low-end response and the high end compresses and softens. EL-84s DO tend to get more ice-picky as you crank them higher, but at their extreme, they will round out as well.

 

[laxu]

What happens on a Fender when you crank it is afiak this:

• Bright cap is largely doing nothing. This is primarily what makes it sound smoother and darker.
• Phase inverter distorts and starts adding extra gain, which can add compression and further smoothing.
• Power tubes distort, again for more compression and drive.
• Then if you crank it too high the low end might start to get farty unless you reduce it at the preamp. This is why most drive pedals and overdrive channels have less low end than clean channels.

Try this again with the bright switch turned off and you might find that you hear more that compression and extra gain.

 

[Byrdman]

I see they advertise transparent attenuators, not sure how transparent they are because they are expensive as hell. What attenuator are you using? For a cheaper version people swear the JohnH is very good but I have not tried it.

I just picked up a HB-PA100 and it does the same, the higher the attenuation lever the good high's and harmonics are chocked for lack of a better term. But I have to get the power amp valves cooking to get the good distortion tones from my new Marshall Origin.

I'm slowly learning that everything is a trade-off in this game, lol...

 

[laxu]

I see they advertise transparent attenuators, not sure how transparent they are because they are expensive as hell. What attenuator are you using? For a cheaper version people swear the JohnH is very good but I have not tried it.

I just picked up a HB-PA100 and it does the same, the higher the attenuation lever the good high's and harmonics are chocked for lack of a better term. But I have to get the power amp valves cooking to get the good distortion tones from my new Marshall Origin.

I'm slowly learning that everything is a trade-off in this game, lol...

He's using the "attenuator" in the Fender Tone Master amps. It's afaik just a notched volume control between the digital preamp and poweramp.

The HB attenuator is a resistive load so it tends to sound/feel flat. Best you can do is try to compensate with amp EQ.

 

[Byrdman]

He's using the "attenuator" in the Fender Tone Master amps. It's afaik just a notched volume control between the digital preamp and poweramp.

The HB attenuator is a resistive load so it tends to sound/feel flat. Best you can do is try to compensate with amp EQ.

Thanks for the clarification! Yeah, I also throw in an Eq in the loop when I have my Stomp XL hooked to it.

 

[KingsXJJ]

This is an avoidable unnecessary side effect. Fender: don’t digitally reproduce an analog attenuator. Produce one with all of the benefits without the draw-backs. Others have done this well.

Now I have 5 amp “characters” to choose from. Only full power sounds full range. So guess what I use? And lose? The actual use of the attenuator. Unless I am missing something altogether. Entirely possible.

 

[KingsXJJ]

And put a push-pull option for dwell/space or tone on the reverb knob and presence/resonance on the bass and treble controls FFS.

 

[GreatGreen]

Turning things up a little bit louder will make things seem brighter due to the Fletcher Munson effect. But once you get to the point of clipping, the highs basically always reach clipping first and therefore stop getting louder first, then the rest of the frequencies catch up to the highs, making the amp get darker and more rounded off.

Basically, it's the opposite of what the OP believed. Turning an amp louder basically NEVER makes it brighter, it only makes your human perception of it seem like it's getting brighter as you turn it up from 0 to clipping. At the point of poweramp saturation, due to the way impedance curves work, amps basically always go from relatively brighter to relatively darker.

 

[KingsXJJ]

Turning things up a little bit louder will make things seem brighter due to the Fletcher Munson effect. But once you get to the point of clipping, the highs basically always reach clipping first and therefore stop getting louder first, then the rest of the frequencies catch up to the highs, making the amp get darker and more rounded off.

Basically, it's the opposite of what the OP believed. Turning an amp louder basically NEVER makes it brighter, it only makes your human perception of it seem brighter. At the point of poweramp saturation, due to the way impedance curves work, basically always makes amps go from relatively brighter to relatively darker.

Thank you for this excellent reply. Perhaps now my thought would be why a simulation of an attenuator could not factor in human perception and thereby recreating the experience?

 

[GreatGreen]

Thank you for this excellent reply. Perhaps now my thought would be why a simulation of an attenuator could not factor in human perception and thereby recreating the experience?

It could have if Fender wanted to do that, but Fender simply chose not to implement any kind of Fletcher Munson compensation EQ. It was the correct decision IMO, as loudness compensation EQ is almost never all that great or accurate.

 

[KingsXJJ]

It could have if Fender wanted to do that, but Fender simply chose not to implement any kind of Fletcher Munson compensation EQ. It was the correct decision IMO, as loudness compensation EQ is almost never all that great or accurate.

I’ve seen Yamaha use variable loudness with some degree of success on home hi-fi audio components like preamps. I’d prefer to be able to choose.

 

[Frodebro]

Fletcher-Munson, kids. It’s not the amp, it’s your ears. Remember how home stereos used to have a ‘loudness’ button? That was to account for F-M at lower volumes by increasing the lows and highs.

 

[KingsXJJ]

Whoosh…

 

[KingsXJJ]

I was thinking that having an attenuator deliver an authentic subjective experience would be most excellent. A congruent experience given across delivery systems using known parameters. Use some sort of AI to help with hearing capability(s). But hey, may be just me. I do think that “part” being modeled might be a cool next step. This seems to me to be much more fundamental in achieving an “in-person” experience than similarly-pointed features like head tracking via Waza Headphones.

 

[GreatGreen]

I was thinking that having an attenuator deliver an authentic subjective experience would be most excellent. A congruent experience given across delivery systems using known parameters. Use some sort of AI to help with hearing capability(s). But hey, may be just me. I do think that “part” being modeled might be a cool next step. This seems to me to be much more fundamental in achieving an “in-person” experience than similarly-pointed features like head tracking via Waza Headphones.

Unfortunately no attenuator or anything else of which I'm aware is going to be able to manipulate a tube amp output signal like that. The reason tube amps sound like they do is because they are influenced by the load or impedance curve of the speaker cabinet to which they are connected. You can’t interject signal processing (like an FM curve EQ compensator) between them without breaking that poweramp/speaker connection.

The best you could really hope for is a dedicated modeler and poweramp where you can setup an EQ between the modeler and poweramp, or you could use an actual tube amp and a reamper (basically a reactive load and tube power section in one box) like a Fryette Power Station and put an EQ in the Power Station’s effects loop or something.

 

[KingsXJJ]

Unfortunately no attenuator is going to be able to manipulate a tube amp output signal like that. The reason tube amps sound like they do is because they are influenced by the load or impedance curve of the speaker cabinet to which they are connected. You can’t interject signal processing (like an FM curve EQ compensator) between them without breaking that poweramp/speaker connection.

The best you could really hope for is a dedicated modeler and poweramp where you can setup an EQ between the modeler and poweramp, or you could use an actual tube amp and a reamper (basically a reactive load and tube power section in one box) like a Fryette Power Station and put an EQ in the Power Station’s effects loop or something.

I thought someone might be able to emulate an attenuator on a non-tube amp modeler that allows a selectable and hopefully variable user experience that compensates not only for tube amp behavior but on how it sounds and feels in the moment. Compensating items in such a way to create an idealized perceived loudness. I simply don’t know how to make the idea clearer. If you don’t like it or think it’s possible that’s ok with me. I apologize if I’ve poorly communicated my thoughts. It wasn’t an attempt at combativeness.

 

[GreatGreen]

I thought someone might be able to emulate an attenuator on a non-tube amp modeler that allows a selectable and hopefully variable user experience that compensates not only for tube amp behavior but on how it sounds and feels in the moment. Compensating items in such a way to create an idealized perceived loudness. I simply don’t know how to make the idea clearer. If you don’t like it or think it’s possible that’s ok with me. I apologize if I’ve poorly communicated my thoughts. It wasn’t an attempt at combativeness.

Oh hey I'm not trying to be combative either, at all! Just trying to speak matter-of-factly about what I understand to be possible or not. I'm trying to help you manage your expectations. All good, man.

In the digital realm though, I suppose anything is possible. I was just trying to say, and I think you agreed, that it would be an extremely difficult and nuanced thing to even attempt a realistic FM sim like you're talking about.