Having a hard time hitting -14LUFS

[T Gobbs]

What I've read is telling me my mixes are probably too dark. I've been cutting out the low end and as much of the low mids as I can on every instrument, as well as squashing everything much more than I usually do, but even with all that I'm still running out of headroom at about -18. What else can I do?

 

[PLX]

I'm learning about this stuff right now, as well.

I was getting stuck at -14 LUFS due to the way ReaperDAW is setup.

 

[DrewJD82]

Are you able to hear what you’re cutting out, or are you just cutting the general areas like 80hz-30hz?

Or a better question, when you make these cuts, are you hearing other instruments stand out more as you’re making them?

If your monitors aren’t able to demonstrate those cuts in an audible way, you’re shooting in the dark for a lot of it. When you can hear it effectively, you can make targeted cuts based off how they relate to other instruments and when you give everything the clarity it needs, you free up headroom.

And instead of increasing volume to get something standing out, try using EQ to achieve the same thing but by cutting/boosting. I’m having my best luck with this by getting everything to a general level where it’s balanced, but sometimes the cymbals or snare will overpower the guitars more than I prefer, so I‘ll pull up an EQ with a frequency analyzer, look at where the cymbals are sitting and where the guitars are sitting, then carve whatever I can out of the cymbals right up until the point they’ll start sounding funky.

Depending on what amp/tone I’m using, I often boost around 1.5k to get guitars popping out more, then hack off as high as 100hz if it doesn’t cut the balls off.

So much of this stuff is training your ears to hear how the changes you’re making effect everything else. I always had a hard time hearing headroom run out on my HS5’s and it took me a few weeks to recognize it on the HS8’s, but once I did I was able to start making EQ decisions that made so much more sense in relation to all the damn mixing videos I’ve watched over the years on speakers I could barely hear what they were doing.

 

[T Gobbs]

^I'm a little blind on the low end, but the cuts I'm making seem to be making things stand out. I'm boosting 1.5 on the guitars and 4.8 on the snare. Cutting guitars at 160, bass at 80, and kick at 50. Brass is relatively low. Bass is just guitar tuned down, and that's creating all sorts of problems. Compressors on pretty much every track shaving down 3-6 db depending. Bass and kick are a bit more crushed.

This got me to -16.1 with -1db of headroom:

 

[FuzzyAce]

^I'm a little blind on the low end, but the cuts I'm making seem to be making things stand out. I'm boosting 1.5 on the guitars and 4.8 on the snare. Cutting guitars at 160, bass at 80, and kick at 50. Brass is relatively low. Bass is just guitar tuned down, and that's creating all sorts of problems. Compressors on pretty much every track shaving down 3-6 db depending. Bass and kick are a bit more crushed.

This got me to -16.1 with -1db of headroom:

This is crushed way too much T. The dynamics, punch are gone completely. Fwiw, this sounds completely different than your earlier entries in the Challenge thread? What are you doing differently?
I'm no mixing guru, but when I get to a point a mix isn't working or it's gone too far I'll often just start over from scratch by removing most if not all eq or compression plugins. Taking a break with the ears helps too. @DrewJD82 gives some good advice about cutting or boosting necessary frequencies so the mix isn't working as hard when it hits the master fader. Instead of compression a dynamic eq may be the better option for controlling those troubling frequencies. This is something that I've given more attention lately and will continue to because it makes a huge difference, even with subtle tweaks. I know doing these Challenge songs we may rush a bit but it's worth it to do a little tweaking.

 

[T Gobbs]

This is crushed way too much T. The dynamics, punch are gone completely. Fwiw, this sounds completely different than your earlier entries in the Challenge thread? What are you doing differently?
I'm no mixing guru, but when I get to a point a mix isn't working or it's gone too far I'll often just start over from scratch by removing most if not all eq or compression plugins. Taking a break with the ears helps too. @DrewJD82 gives some good advice about cutting or boosting necessary frequencies so the mix isn't working as hard when it hits the master fader. Instead of compression a dynamic eq may be the better option for controlling those troubling frequencies. This is something that I've given more attention lately and will continue to because it makes a huge difference, even with subtle tweaks. I know doing these Challenge songs we may rush a bit but it's worth it to do a little tweaking.

I was fucking around with limiters for the first time I think my mix was actually louder without them. Apparently I was also sending everything through the guitar bus as well.

 

[DrewJD82]

I was fucking around with limiters for the first time I think my mix was actually louder without them. Apparently I was also sending everything through the guitar bus as well.

Hahahaha I just did something like that with some drum busses. “WHERE TF IS THIS SNARE COMING FROM??!?!?”

Dynamic stuff like limiters and compressors are REALLY tricky to utilize until you can recognize exactly what they’re doing. While some compression might condense things and remove some peaks, they can also remove all the life from a song by doing so. Limiters are the same, for me anyway, I have a hard time hearing what they’re doing while listening through studio monitors, but it’s usually the first thing that outs itself as “I DID TOO MUCH!” when I check it in my truck.

I know mixing for me has been a series of overcorrections, using too much of a plug-in, regardless what plug-in it is, when it really didn’t need any treatment at all, or just a simple LP/HP filter.

 

[PLX]

I was fucking around with limiters for the first time I think my mix was actually louder without them. Apparently I was also sending everything through the guitar bus as well.

What I'm seeing is that I can't bring down the limiter threshold more than -3.2 before my track goes above -14 LUFS and starts to sound like it's going thru a trash compactor.

 

[FuzzyAce]

I was fucking around with limiters for the first time I think my mix was actually louder without them. Apparently I was also sending everything through the guitar bus as well.

 

[PLX]

 

[pipelineaudio]

What I've read is telling me my mixes are probably too dark. I've been cutting out the low end and as much of the low mids as I can on every instrument, as well as squashing everything much more than I usually do, but even with all that I'm still running out of headroom at about -18. What else can I do?

This means you are not a total piece of shit. Rejoice that your music does NOT enjoy being hammered flatter than an olympic gymnast.

Your job is done.

For distribution, send it to a mastering engineer who will destroy it, and then for those that care, you can blame it on him, but for the Swifties and Chillipepperonis, they'll get the squashed crap they expect and make you a millionaire

 

[MirrorProfiles]

What I've read is telling me my mixes are probably too dark. I've been cutting out the low end and as much of the low mids as I can on every instrument, as well as squashing everything much more than I usually do, but even with all that I'm still running out of headroom at about -18. What else can I do?

It’s really as simple as frequency balance and dynamics (both on a micro level and overall level). It’s quite common to need to boost a fair amount of top end to match commercial mixes.

Try referencing commercial stuff and volume match first, then listen to frequency balance and finally try and assess the difference in dynamics. You really need to be on top of your monitoring to be able to hear what’s going on. Another trick is paying attention to the elements of the mix that are causing distortion (or the limiter working too hard).

If the frequency balance is all over the place you won’t have the headroom to get things loud. -14LUFS isn’t particularly loud, I’ve often mixed stuff that’ll get to that volume without any limiting at all.

 

[Bruce]

I apply a 2 channel bus comp (AudioScape G buss) to my main mixbus. Then I apply a meter and adjust the comps output to hit my target which is generally -10 Lufs for backing tracks. If I want something competitively loud I’ll go for -6Lufs.

 

[Bruce]

It’s really as simple as frequency balance and dynamics (both on a micro level and overall level). It’s quite common to need to boost a fair amount of top end to match commercial mixes.

Try referencing commercial stuff and volume match first, then listen to frequency balance and finally try and assess the difference in dynamics. You really need to be on top of your monitoring to be able to hear what’s going on. Another trick is paying attention to the elements of the mix that are causing distortion (or the limiter working too hard).

If the frequency balance is all over the place you won’t have the headroom to get things loud. -14LUFS isn’t particularly loud, I’ve often mixed stuff that’ll get to that volume without any limiting at all.

Yes shouldn’t be hard to hit -14 LUFS and still not clip. I’d go back and check my mix if I were the op.

 

[marsonic]

^I'm a little blind on the low end, but the cuts I'm making seem to be making things stand out. I'm boosting 1.5 on the guitars and 4.8 on the snare. Cutting guitars at 160, bass at 80, and kick at 50. Brass is relatively low. Bass is just guitar tuned down, and that's creating all sorts of problems. Compressors on pretty much every track shaving down 3-6 db depending. Bass and kick are a bit more crushed.

This got me to -16.1 with -1db of headroom:

Warning: I'm going to be brutally honest based on what I heard and measured. If you can't take serious criticism, please just scroll past or block me, and don't take anything I'm about to say as an attack on you as a person. I honestly don't mean it that way.

I saw a couple comments from you that you screwed up some details (guitar bus, etc.), but....I think either you're misreading your meters or you didn't find all the issues. Something is seriously wrong with something you're doing. It could just be the rendering. If you listened to that track after you bounced it, I think it's in your monitoring.

What, specifically, are you using to listen to this?
Do commercial tracks sound good using the exact same monitoring chain? Or do they sound insanely mid forward and bassy?
Did you accidentally render through SonarWorks, ARC, DiracLive, NX, VSX, or something?
Stereo subwoofers out of phase, maybe?

As for level....that track is pretty much hovering around -16 to -17 with less than a dB of variation in macrodynamics. But, I measure a true peak max of -2.6. It's probably just soundcloud normalization that makes the numbers different.

Nothing you can do with a limiter will fix the problem that the whole track is fortissimo with no variation - that's an arrangement issue, not a technical one. As for the "huge" dynamic range (compared to commercial metal), it seems to me like you're not actually controlling any of the transients....not sure why given some of the things you've said. Maybe you're "afraid" of your limiters?

The big problem, and I mean this in the kindest way I can, is that it sounds like shit.

It's not just that the bass is low. Compared to anything remotely commercial, there's very little content below about 2k, functionally nothing below 100Hz, and a huge/wide peak around 7k. It's nowhere near balanced. It's too wide. It's harsh and grating and almost painful to listen to. I had to go back to it and a reference track because I thought something about my setup was broken at first, but references sound good and meters and ears agree.

Some kind of glitch in rendering seems like the most likely culprit (and you not listening to it on soundcloud). You said it went through the guitar bus...what did you have on the guitar bus?

Start by listening to commercial music the exact same way you're listening to that. It should sound very, very wrong in the opposite ways I've criticized your mix. If commercial music sounds way wrong (bassy, midrangey, dark), it's your montiors. If commercial music sounds right, it's a rendering glitch (and I'm not convinced you listened to your bounce or soundcloud before you posted it).

 

[PLX]

Warning: I'm going to be brutally honest based on what I heard and measured. If you can't take serious criticism, please just scroll past or block me, and don't take anything I'm about to say as an attack on you as a person. I honestly don't mean it that way.

I saw a couple comments from you that you screwed up some details (guitar bus, etc.), but....I think either you're misreading your meters or you didn't find all the issues. Something is seriously wrong with something you're doing. It could just be the rendering. If you listened to that track after you bounced it, I think it's in your monitoring.

What, specifically, are you using to listen to this?
Do commercial tracks sound good using the exact same monitoring chain? Or do they sound insanely mid forward and bassy?
Did you accidentally render through SonarWorks, ARC, DiracLive, NX, VSX, or something?
Stereo subwoofers out of phase, maybe?

As for level....that track is pretty much hovering around -16 to -17 with less than a dB of variation in macrodynamics. But, I measure a true peak max of -2.6. It's probably just soundcloud normalization that makes the numbers different.

Nothing you can do with a limiter will fix the problem that the whole track is fortissimo with no variation - that's an arrangement issue, not a technical one. As for the "huge" dynamic range (compared to commercial metal), it seems to me like you're not actually controlling any of the transients....not sure why given some of the things you've said. Maybe you're "afraid" of your limiters?

The big problem, and I mean this in the kindest way I can, is that it sounds like shit.

It's not just that the bass is low. Compared to anything remotely commercial, there's very little content below about 2k, functionally nothing below 100Hz, and a huge/wide peak around 7k. It's nowhere near balanced. It's too wide. It's harsh and grating and almost painful to listen to. I had to go back to it and a reference track because I thought something about my setup was broken at first, but references sound good and meters and ears agree.

Some kind of glitch in rendering seems like the most likely culprit (and you not listening to it on soundcloud). You said it went through the guitar bus...what did you have on the guitar bus?

Start by listening to commercial music the exact same way you're listening to that. It should sound very, very wrong in the opposite ways I've criticized your mix. If commercial music sounds way wrong (bassy, midrangey, dark), it's your montiors. If commercial music sounds right, it's a rendering glitch (and I'm not convinced you listened to your bounce or soundcloud before you posted it).

Would you critique some of my clips ?

 

[T Gobbs]

Warning: I'm going to be brutally honest based on what I heard and measured. If you can't take serious criticism, please just scroll past or block me, and don't take anything I'm about to say as an attack on you as a person. I honestly don't mean it that way.

Thanks for taking the time dude.

Agreed it sounds like shit. That wasn't me posting anything I thought was good, more wondering why it took so much destruction to hit that level.. My ears were pretty fried by the point I rendered, and yes I did listen to it after, and it still sounded like shit to me (that fucking fuzz wasn't helping, and I'm assuming that's why everything is messed up around 7k and is one of the reasons why the high end sounds broken), I was also going for "bright," because that's what the internet told me me would help. Lack of content below 100 makes sense, as I was hi passing the guitars around there, as well as compressing the shit out of them.. I'm using a compressor that has preset ratios, and the limiter setting is 1:10 or something like that. You're right about not actually controlling the transients. I squashed everything as much as I could, and there were still big peaks poking through on the waveform while rendering. Pretty much every track in the project had the maximum amount of compression that plugin would allow, and it was still doing that. And not going to disagree about he composition being part of the problem, but I feel like even with that I should be able to make this work.

I'm using Massdrop 6xxs to monitor, and there's enough low end as far as headphones go. Commercial stuff (the KSE My Curse stems) have a lot more punch in the low end, but, again, I was carving everything out that I could looking for headroom. Having the kick be clicky and the snare be thin is the only why I feel like I get them to poke through without clipping.

Here's one that's less fucked up. This got me -13.7 with 1.5 left over according to reaper. Using that same compressor to take 3-6 db off of the drums, and the same plug limiting on the master is taking down about 2.



Thanks again for writing all that out. I still have no idea what I'm doing.

 

[PLX]

Thanks for taking the time dude.

Agreed it sounds like shit. That wasn't me posting anything I thought was good, more wondering why it took so much destruction to hit that level.. My ears were pretty fried by the point I rendered, and yes I did listen to it after, and it still sounded like shit to me (that fucking fuzz wasn't helping, and I'm assuming that's why everything is messed up around 7k and is one of the reasons why the high end sounds broken), I was also going for "bright," because that's what the internet told me me would help. Lack of content below 100 makes sense, as I was hi passing the guitars around there, as well as compressing the shit out of them.. I'm using a compressor that has preset ratios, and the limiter setting is 1:10 or something like that. You're right about not actually controlling the transients. I squashed everything as much as I could, and there were still big peaks poking through on the waveform while rendering. Pretty much every track in the project had the maximum amount of compression that plugin would allow, and it was still doing that. And not going to disagree about he composition being part of the problem, but I feel like even with that I should be able to make this work.

I'm using Massdrop 6xxs to monitor, and there's enough low end as far as headphones go. Commercial stuff (the KSE My Curse stems) have a lot more punch in the low end, but, again, I was carving everything out that I could looking for headroom. Having the kick be clicky and the snare be thin is the only why I feel like I get them to poke through without clipping.

Here's one that's less fucked up. This got me -13.7 with 1.5 left over according to reaper. Using that same compressor to take 3-6 db off of the drums, and the same plug limiting on the master is taking down about 2.



Thanks again for writing all that out. I still have no idea what I'm doing.

Check out Ozone 11 to help with this.

"Elements" version is $20 right now !

 

[Cirrus]

I had a listen to the first clip on my desktop at work through little speakers. Sounded like all the headroom was being eaten up by a crazy, crazy kick sound whomping away out above the fizzy guitars. Many things to resolve, young grasshopper

 

[DrewJD82]

Thanks for taking the time dude.

Agreed it sounds like shit. That wasn't me posting anything I thought was good, more wondering why it took so much destruction to hit that level.. My ears were pretty fried by the point I rendered, and yes I did listen to it after, and it still sounded like shit to me (that fucking fuzz wasn't helping, and I'm assuming that's why everything is messed up around 7k and is one of the reasons why the high end sounds broken), I was also going for "bright," because that's what the internet told me me would help. Lack of content below 100 makes sense, as I was hi passing the guitars around there, as well as compressing the shit out of them.. I'm using a compressor that has preset ratios, and the limiter setting is 1:10 or something like that. You're right about not actually controlling the transients. I squashed everything as much as I could, and there were still big peaks poking through on the waveform while rendering. Pretty much every track in the project had the maximum amount of compression that plugin would allow, and it was still doing that. And not going to disagree about he composition being part of the problem, but I feel like even with that I should be able to make this work.

I'm using Massdrop 6xxs to monitor, and there's enough low end as far as headphones go. Commercial stuff (the KSE My Curse stems) have a lot more punch in the low end, but, again, I was carving everything out that I could looking for headroom. Having the kick be clicky and the snare be thin is the only why I feel like I get them to poke through without clipping.

Here's one that's less fucked up. This got me -13.7 with 1.5 left over according to reaper. Using that same compressor to take 3-6 db off of the drums, and the same plug limiting on the master is taking down about 2.



Thanks again for writing all that out. I still have no idea what I'm doing.

Mixng is a whole other art form in itself and takes to figure out, just like playing an instrument. That’s really the only thought that keeps me going at it, knowing that it’s unreasonable for me to think I should be busting out killer mixes when I’ve been in an amateur studio for 6 years, making do with waht I have.

To get the kick/snare/toms standing out more, look up some videos on parallel compression. I used to send the entire stereo track of the kit to a bus with a compressor on it, but now I just do kick/snare/toms. Fast attack, fast release because I just want the initial hit of the drum to pop out, start with the fader all the way at 0 and slowly ride it up until you can hear what you’re looking for.

Your mention of presets is precisely why I stay away from presets with plug-ins; if I don’t know what they’re actually doing because I don’t understand it, I’m not learning anything by selecting a preset until it sounds “good”and chances are, I’m allowing Fletcher Munson dictate what’s going on and not actual audio information.