Guitar brands and third party manufacturers. Who makes it , where and does it matter.

[Eagle]

An interesting brand that is now doing well that pretty much never really made anything it’s self is Schecter. It started life as a parts company that was selling Tom Anderson built necks and bodies together with Gotoh made hardware on cards. It came to prominence with well known artists playing Schecter full guitars that you couldn’t buy. You had a few guys putting them together with a Schecter badge on. Even huge brands like Ibanez only actually started to make their own products with the relatively recent premium factory (ex Cort facility). Fender when it was purchased from CBS was only the name, and all products were made by Fugi Gen ( the company making Ibanez Japan . Corona was nearly two years away and in 1985 Fender was only a name. Kramer after the aluminium neck models was just an assembly plant unable to manufacture anything and remained this way. Prototype models were made by Tom Anderson and the vast majority of quality products were manufactured by ESP in Japan . That included the American range . Deusenberg is by no means the first company to be built by a collection of third party factories and hides the use of budget manufacturing to keep up the margins. Problems with perceived value occer when an industry that was using country of origin as a badge of quality started to make higher priced products in previously established budget locations and even the same factories. There was a ceiling price point for products which emanated from a particular origin. High to low went USA , Japan, Korea, China . Originally writing MIK on a product put a low top price that people would pay. Companies got around it by using a loophole in consumer law that puts a percentage of production at a low point 30% in order to make the claim that it was made in xxx . This at the time included assembly of imported parts. I could write a book on this topic but when companies break with these perceptions it can cause them marketing problems. Strandberg still get a lot of criticism for MII products at £2k + Things are better now on the whole and most of us just look at the product .

 

[SKU]

An interesting brand that is now doing well that pretty much never really made anything it’s self is Schecter. It started life as a parts company that was selling Tom Anderson built necks and bodies together with Gotoh made hardware on cards. It came to prominence with well known artists playing Schecter full guitars that you couldn’t buy. You had a few guys putting them together with a Schecter badge on. Even huge brands like Ibanez only actually started to make their own products with the relatively recent premium factory (ex Cort facility). Fender when it was purchased from CBS was only the name, and all products were made by Fugi Gen ( the company making Ibanez Japan . Corona was nearly two years away and in 1985 Fender was only a name. Kramer after the aluminium neck models was just an assembly plant unable to manufacture anything and remained this way. Prototype models were made by Tom Anderson and the vast majority of quality products were manufactured by ESP in Japan . That included the American range . Deusenberg is by no means the first company to be built by a collection of third party factories and hides the use of budget manufacturing to keep up the margins. Problems with perceived value occer when an industry that was using country of origin as a badge of quality started to make higher priced products in previously established budget locations and even the same factories. There was a ceiling price point for products which emanated from a particular origin. High to low went USA , Japan, Korea, China . Originally writing MIK on a product put a low top price that people would pay. Companies got around it by using a loophole in consumer law that puts a percentage of production at a low point 30% in order to make the claim that it was made in xxx . This at the time included assembly of imported parts. I could write a book on this topic but when companies break with these perceptions it can cause them marketing problems. Strandberg still get a lot of criticism for MII products at £2k + Things are better now on the whole and most of us just look at the product .

That's very interesting and would like to hear more about it. Never knew that Fender guitars were at some point not made in USA at all. I get the brand thing though... something like PRS guitars being bought by a corporation after Paul's death ( or if he sells ), production moved to somewhere else so in the end only the name remains.

 

[laxu]

Problems with perceived value occer when an industry that was using country of origin as a badge of quality started to make higher priced products in previously established budget locations and even the same factories. There was a ceiling price point for products which emanated from a particular origin. High to low went USA , Japan, Korea, China . Originally writing MIK on a product put a low top price that people would pay. Companies got around it by using a loophole in consumer law that puts a percentage of production at a low point 30% in order to make the claim that it was made in xxx . This at the time included assembly of imported parts. I could write a book on this topic but when companies break with these perceptions it can cause them marketing problems. Strandberg still get a lot of criticism for MII products at £2k + Things are better now on the whole and most of us just look at the product .

The country of manufacture "prestige ranking" has gotten a lot more muddied in the past 10 years or so as more guitar factories have moved to countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, or Malaysia. Those are IMO kinda grouped together with South Korea in your older ranking, with China still holding the bottom just because the dirt cheap, lowest of the low tier comes from there.

It gets even weirder when you have e.g Ibanez MIJ models that might be "plain" looking solid color finishes, but then have figured tops (most likely veneers) on MII models so that kinda skews the perception of where the money goes because figured tops are seen as a premium feature.

We are also starting to see things like "Designed in California" type labels on e.g Apple products. I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of nonsense ends up in guitars at some point.

 

[Eagle]

The country of manufacture "prestige ranking" has gotten a lot more muddied in the past 10 years or so as more guitar factories have moved to countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, or Malaysia. Those are IMO kinda grouped together with South Korea in your older ranking, with China still holding the bottom just because the dirt cheap, lowest of the low tier comes from there.

It gets even weirder when you have e.g Ibanez MIJ models that might be "plain" looking solid color finishes, but then have figured tops (most likely veneers) on MII models so that kinda skews the perception of where the money goes because figured tops are seen as a premium feature.

We are also starting to see things like "Designed in California" type labels on e.g Apple products. I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of nonsense ends up in guitars at some point.

Totally agree, the way I presented it was how the industry did 30 years ago and it has gradually evolved over time. The figured veneer top thing is just a BS marketing gimmick first really done at Epiphone Korea when practically every £249 Less Paul look 10 times better than a real one. Now we have the guitars I describe as gold plated shit ( Sire Eart and the like) adding all the trimmings on a guitar that is fundamentally extremely budget but highlighting a couple of features that are "premium" but the core of the thing is pure garbage. It's the age old adding value to commodities that are fundamentally very cheap like adding the word "wedding" to cake. Highlight something and hope you don't look too carefully at the rest.

 

[laxu]

Totally agree, the way I presented it was how the industry did 30 years ago and it has gradually evolved over time. The figured veneer top thing is just a BS marketing gimmick first really done at Epiphone Korea when practically every £249 Less Paul look 10 times better than a real one. Now we have the guitars I describe as gold plated shit ( Sire Eart and the like) adding all the trimmings on a guitar that is fundamentally extremely budget but highlighting a couple of features that are "premium" but the core of the thing is pure garbage. It's the age old adding value to commodities that are fundamentally very cheap like adding the word "wedding" to cake. Highlight something and hope you don't look too carefully at the rest.

You have mentioned the Sires in a number of posts. What's so bad about them?

I've never played them but seen a couple in a store and they looked alright to me - same as similar guitars in that price bracket. In this price range I usually expect the stock pickups/electronics are mediocre, the nut is poorly cut plastic but otherwise it's alright.

 

[Eagle]

Hardware;
This is an interesting subject.
It used to be mainly Kluson that were pretty basic , Grover USA, Schaller and unbranded (almost always Gotoh). Now Gotoh is the top of the tree and there are many OEM builders in China and Korea..
Grover and Kluson are gone effectively entirely third party construction . Grover went very quietly to Korea and Kluson went altogether for a long time . Hipshot is interesting as they where building quality bridges when they got a OEM Korean builder to make all there tuners. The Same one makes Suhr own brand locking tuners that you can buy unbranded from Allparts. The previously quality unbranded tuners that used to be Gotoh went to Korea (JinHo and Sungil) and remained pretty good but now we have Chinese copies of these Korean copies of Japanese copies of Schaller M6s that are utter rubbish but look pretty much the same. The same thing with stop tails and tunamatics. All supposedly zinc but the Gotoh is a very different beast to the identical looking sintered stop tail that the strings get stuck in found on Sire and the like.
Kluson have come back in name with some products made in Japan (Gotoh and excellent ) and then a range of mostly middle to bad Korean stuff. It is a minefield to find out what is good and what isn't by just looking at it. There are plenty of examples of identical looking pieces that are actually chalk and cheese different fundamentally.

 

[Eagle]

You have mentioned the Sires in a number of posts. What's so bad about them?

I've never played them but seen a couple in a store and they looked alright to me - same as similar guitars in that price bracket. In this price range I usually expect the stock pickups/electronics are mediocre, the nut is poorly cut plastic but otherwise it's alright.

I have on in that I will photograph to show my issues when I get to it . It is all about what it looks like.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

If guitars weren't commodity items and one couldn't buy very cheap guitars that nonetheless look pretty darn cool, there would be no guitar industry, and even more kids would view GarageBand as the gateway to making music rather than the cheap guitar they got under the Christmas tree a couple of years ago that for whatever reason seems kind of interesting now on this boring summer afternoon.

 

[Eagle]

If guitars weren't commodity items and one couldn't buy very cheap guitars that nonetheless look pretty darn cool, there would be no guitar industry, and even more kids would view GarageBand as the gateway to making music rather than the cheap guitar they got under the Christmas tree a couple of years ago that for whatever reason seems kind of interesting now on this boring summer afternoon.

Yes I agree but there is a point where it should actually become a musical instrument and not just a guitar shaped object. I don't have a problem when companies are transparent. But if they present cut glass as diamonds I will tell you.

 

[laxu]

Hardware;
This is an interesting subject.
It used to be mainly Kluson that were pretty basic , Grover USA, Schaller and unbranded (almost always Gotoh). Now Gotoh is the top of the tree and there are many OEM builders in China and Korea..
Grover and Kluson are gone effectively entirely third party construction . Grover went very quietly to Korea and Kluson went altogether for a long time . Hipshot is interesting as they where building quality bridges when they got a OEM Korean builder to make all there tuners. The Same one makes Suhr own brand locking tuners that you can buy unbranded from Allparts. The previously quality unbranded tuners that used to be Gotoh went to Korea (JinHo and Sungil) and remained pretty good but now we have Chinese copies of these Korean copies of Japanese copies of Schaller M6s that are utter rubbish but look pretty much the same. The same thing with stop tails and tunamatics. All supposedly zinc but the Gotoh is a very different beast to the identical looking sintered stop tail that the strings get stuck in found on Sire and the like.
Kluson have come back in name with some products made in Japan (Gotoh and excellent ) and then a range of mostly middle to bad Korean stuff. It is a minefield to find out what is good and what isn't by just looking at it. There are plenty of examples of identical looking pieces that are actually chalk and cheese different fundamentally.

The hardware and fretwire is definitely the most difficult to evaluate because you rely on look alone.

But it's not like the older stuff was always good either. I have a Gotoh bridge from the 1990s that was extremely sloppy on its bridge posts so I did the "Tonepros" grub screw mod on it to have stable tuning and intonation.

The best TOM bridge I've ever seen is a Yamaha made one. I have two of them for my 40+ years old SA-1200S semi-hollowbody and those things are real precision work, and have barely any wear even though I've owned the guitar for about 20 years now. Wider intonation range than normal TOMs too.

 

[spawnofthesith]

That's very interesting and would like to hear more about it. Never knew that Fender guitars were at some point not made in USA at all. I get the brand thing though... something like PRS guitars being bought by a corporation after Paul's death ( or if he sells ), production moved to somewhere else so in the end only the name remains.

The "only the name" can get a little goofy and disingenuous though. People at the other place love to say all the time in their "take downs" that "Gibson is only gibson in the name" but fail to realize that the by the time the "golden era" of Gibson rolled around they were already Gibson in name only

 

[SKU]

If guitars weren't commodity items and one couldn't buy very cheap guitars that nonetheless look pretty darn cool, there would be no guitar industry, and even more kids would view GarageBand as the gateway to making music rather than the cheap guitar they got under the Christmas tree a couple of years ago that for whatever reason seems kind of interesting now on this boring summer afternoon.

Music was better without a guitar industry back in the day ..

The "only the name" can get a little goofy and disingenuous though. People at the other place love to say all the time in their "take downs" that "Gibson is only gibson in the name" but fail to realize that the by the time the "golden era" of Gibson rolled around they were already Gibson in name only

I agree although at least with Gibson that name and legacy really resonates in people so the name itself has intrinsic value.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Yes I agree but there is a point where it should actually become a musical instrument and not just a guitar shaped object.

That threshold is very low for an electric guitar to be an instrument, though. As long as it can stay in tune for a song with only minor tweaks needed between songs (preferably a 45 minute lesson/practice session); is reasonably well intonated, doesn’t have impossibly high/stiff action, it’s pretty well fit for purpose. There is absolutely zero agreement across folks making great music with electric guitars about what is and isn’t desirable in terms of sound. They are typically piped through a whole bunch of stuff specifically to mangle whatever inherent sound the instrument has into oblivion.

I understand some of this stuff is annoying to you as a tech that has to fix the broken stuff, and that in an ideal world there would be greater standards across the industry in terms of part fittment, but it’s been a very, very long time since I’ve played even a crappy $75 guitar off Amazon that wasn’t mostly usable out of the box, and easily adjustable to be VERY usable. Which is awesome. Compared to the Kay and Silvertones of yore and even Squier II of the 90s, it’s a different world.

I come at this having served on the board of directors for a local non-profit music school for years, working alongside the guitar instructor to handle donated guitars, getting them into shape for students to use. I’m by no means an amazing tech; the guitar instructor was a bit better than me, but also not wildly experienced, and every Agile, no-name 3/4 sized Amazon Strat-looking/thing, etc., that we were given was pretty easy to get sorted for a kid to use for the first year or two of learning how to play pop/rock/punk/r&b/folk music on.

 

[Achilles]

(preferably a 45 minute lesson/practice session)