Friedman IR-Load

[politoleo]

And the Magical Real Tube Watts Class D amplifier technology (Wampler Pedalhead being rated at 120 watts per side while being if anything a bit smaller than the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 100s that only provides 100 Not Real Tube Watts Class D per side into 4 ohms...)

I'll use your post to explain it better, but someone already got it in the comments:

Our design have enough voltage to deliver 60W of "tube power" at 16ohm. That means it could easily deliver 120W at 8ohm and 240W at 4ohm. However since we are controlling the current wiht our patent pending desing (unlike traditional Class D) we can do anything we want, so it's going to be "limited" to 60 tube watts (50W tube watt in stereo) at all impedances just like a tube amp would, to keep the design small (otherwise you would need a bigger power supply too).

Also what's with tube watt?

A regualar class D, once it gets over that 1% - 5% THD, sounds EXTREMELY bad because the cycle by cycle current limit (sometimes even the OV) will abruptly break the sound and you'll hear nasty distortion, so you can't get over that 1% - 5% THD without really noticing.

A tube amp (as well as our design) will start produce harmonics even at 1% power thanks to its interaction with the speaker, so that at the same voltage is way louder (more than 3dB with a V30 4x12, where 3dB is the difference between 50W and 100W). This is techically still THD, but the good one.

Also thanks to the interaction with the speaker you don't have to dissipate the BEMF of the speaker like a regular class D that has to force it's voltage and the speaker can't move, so it has to "break".

Also we can use the resonance of the cab to amplify the bass just like a tube amp does (that means even more efficiency).

Then more efficiency = less heat = smaller size or more power at the same size.

To close it, it's a newer design so efficiency is already better "by design" now than it was 10 years ago when the IcePower modules were developed, even if we didn't use our patent pending tech.

 

[Chocol8]

The main selling point of these units is the machine learning power section. That’s the only feature that could potentially attract new customers, as well as existing owners of other power-amp options.

I disagree. The an amount of real power output in a small format is a big selling point to me if it can deliver.

Stereo power is a big plus, especially for the IR-Load where the competition is mostly mono.

The potential that the load in the Friedman is better than the Fryette and maybe even the Suhr loads is a significant selling point.

The machine learning piece that contributes to a Class D amp not sounding like yet another sterile and under powered class D amp is a big selling point, but that didn't have to be ML tech.

Finally the ability for the ML to mimich different real power sections is pretty cool and innovative. That said, I would still have been interested without that because we simply don't have good sounding, new, reasonably affordable, sufficiently powerful into 16 ohm power amp options right now. If the Wampler could have just delivered that in its form factor, it could have been a great product. Adding in the ML piece and its really got my attention. Hate to use the phrase game changer, but if it delivers on the promises, I think it will be a big deal.

 

[politoleo]

The machine learning piece that contributes to a Class D amp not sounding like yet another sterile and under powered class D amp is a big selling point, but that didn't have to be ML tech.

Just a clarification: the ML part was not used to mimic different real power section (at least not the way I believe you think it is), it's the whole core that let it derive voltage/current/voltage (in/out/out) behaviour with an unknown input from voltage/current/voltage with a known one. That's what makes it sounds great.

The ability to mimic different real power section is just a "huge benefit" that cames from it, but not the reason it was used in the first place.

 

[OrganicZed]

I'll use your post to explain it better, but someone already got it in the comments:

Our design have enough voltage to deliver 60W of "tube power" at 16ohm. That means it could easily deliver 120W at 8ohm and 240W at 4ohm. However since we are controlling the current wiht our patent pending desing (unlike traditional Class D) we can do anything we want, so it's going to be "limited" to 60 tube watts (50W tube watt in stereo) at all impedances just like a tube amp would, to keep the design small (otherwise you would need a bigger power supply too).

Also what's with tube watt?

A regualar class D, once it gets over that 1% - 5% THD, sounds EXTREMELY bad because the cycle by cycle current limit (sometimes even the OV) will abruptly break the sound and you'll hear nasty distortion, so you can't get over that 1% - 5% THD without really noticing.

A tube amp (as well as our design) will start produce harmonics even at 1% power thanks to its interaction with the speaker, so that at the same voltage is way louder (more than 3dB with a V30 4x12, where 3dB is the difference between 50W and 100W). This is techically still THD, but the good one.

Also thanks to the interaction with the speaker you don't have to dissipate the BEMF of the speaker like a regular class D that has to force it's voltage and the speaker can't move, so it has to "break".

Also we can use the resonance of the cab to amplify the bass just like a tube amp does (that means even more efficiency).

Then more efficiency = less heat = smaller size or more power at the same size.

To close it, it's a newer design so efficiency is already better "by design" now than it was 10 years ago when the IcePower modules were developed, even if we didn't use our patent pending tech.

Can you explain what you mean by the phrase "tube watt"?

A watt is a scientific unit of measure for power defined as 1W = 1J/s. The nature of the amplifier generating the power is irrelevant.

 

[Blix]

Can you explain what you mean by the phrase "tube watt"?

A watt is a scientific unit of measure for power defined as 1W = 1J/s. The nature of the amplifier generating the power is irrelevant.

Come on, you know what he means.

They have chosen to translate it to "tube speak" as we all know how a 50w tube amp absolutely murders a SS amp like say a Duncan PS170.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Come on, you know what he means.

They have chose to translate it to "tube speak" as we all know how a 50w tube amp absolutely murders a SS amp like say a Duncan PS170.

This thing has same size power supply as the ps170 though? And delivers more watts?

 

[OrganicZed]

Come on, you know what he means.

They have chose to translate it to "tube speak" as we all know how a 50w tube amp absolutely murders a SS amp like say a Duncan PS170.

There are measurable variables that explain why a 50W tube amplifier can produce more volume and better dynamics than a PS170 in some use cases. I would like him to elaborate with specifics and ditch the marketing language.

 

[politoleo]

Can you explain what you mean by the phrase "tube watt"?

A watt is a scientific unit of measure for power defined as 1W = 1J/s. The nature of the amplifier generating the power is irrelevant.

A 36Vpp sine wave into a 16ohm cabinet at 400hz is 10W
A 36Vpp sine wave into a 16ohm cabinet at 100hz is 2W
A 36Vpp square wave into a 16ohm cabinet at 400hz is 20W
A 36Vpp square wave into a 16ohm cabinet at 100hz is 4W

The only difference is THD (harmonics), exagerated above.

Let's take a PS100S class D, It says:

120W @ 4ohm 1% THD 1Khz.
60W @ 8ohm 1% THD 1Khz.

And I'm quite sure it delivers that power.

If we have to use the same rationale, a 50W Plexi would be like 20W cause THD would already be higher than that, but everyone knows that a 50W plexi is way louder then the PS100S.

So, when we decided to say "tube watt", is because it's very hard to explain the above as you experienced, I tought I already explained it in the previous post and it still wasn't clear.

But when you say equivalent to 50W tube head, everyone will understand that the peadalhead will be as loud as a 50W Plexi (depending on voltage some vintage Marshall can be higher, but you got the idea)

In other words, power != loudness but somehow power = loudness.

EDIT:

There are measurable variables that explain why a 50W tube amplifier can produce more volume and better dynamics than a PS170 in some use cases. I would like him to elaborate with specifics and ditch the marketing language.

Seems like you knew all of this, didn't notice you were sarcastic!

 

[politoleo]

This thing has same size power supply as the ps170 though? And delivers more watts?

Actually Pedalhead it's about half the size of PS170, 600cm3 vs 1200cm3, also pedalhead is stereo!

 

[OrganicZed]

@politoleo Thanks for the more detailed explanation.

Are the power ratings that you're referencing continuous or peak?

 

[politoleo]

@politoleo Thanks for the more detailed explanation.

Are the power ratings that you're referencing continuous or peak?

Continuous @ 30 degree celsius ambient temperature

 

[Chocol8]

There are measurable variables that explain why a 50W tube amplifier can produce more volume and better dynamics than a PS170 in some use cases. I would like him to elaborate with specifics and ditch the marketing language.

Can you explain what you mean by the phrase "tube watt"?

A watt is a scientific unit of measure for power defined as 1W = 1J/s. The nature of the amplifier generating the power is irrelevant.

The part you are missing is that the scientific definition only applies to actual watts put out by the amp. The amount of power an amp can deliver in the real world is sometimes VERY different than the amount of watts they are rated for.

I have explained a simplistic version of the math elsewhere but a typical budget class D amp into a 16 ohm load may be putting out less than 5% of its rated power at frequencies with higher impedance. OTOH, a tube amp may be able to put out 150% or more of rated power. Then you get into how they sound as the THD climbs and the way the power supply works and impacts the amp, and there are massive real world differences that allow a 50w rated tube amp to be significantly louder than a 200w budget SS amp.

This is the part I am most skeptical of them delivering on given the size and price point of the Wampler. The first chance I get to test one, I will put it up against a couple 40-50 watt and 80-100w tube amps into the same cabs of different ohm ratings and I will listen and measure how well it holds up. If one side can drive a cab within a couple db of a Super Reverb and 50w Marshal, and both sides can drive a pair of speakers within a couple db of a Twin Reverb...without falling apart..it will be a big winner because none of the common options can do that today.

 

[politoleo]

The part you are missing is that the scientific definition only applies to actual watts put out by the amp. The amount of power an amp can deliver in the real world is sometimes VERY different than the amount of watts they are rated for.

I have explained a simplistic version of the math elsewhere but a typical budget class D amp into a 16 ohm load may be putting out less than 5% of its rated power at frequencies with higher impedance. OTOH, a tube amp may be able to put out 150% or more of rated power. Then you get into how they sound as the THD climbs and the way the power supply works and impacts the amp, and there are massive real world differences that allow a 50w rated tube amp to be significantly louder than a 200w budget SS amp.

This is the part I am most skeptical of them delivering on given the size and price point of the Wampler. The first chance I get to test one, I will put it up against a couple 40-50 watt and 80-100w tube amps into the same cabs of different ohm ratings and I will listen and measure how well it holds up. If one side can drive a cab within a couple db of a Super Reverb and 50w Marshal, and both sides can drive a pair of speakers within a couple db of a Twin Reverb...without falling apart..it will be a big winner because none of the common options can do that today.

I think he knows, but he hates the consumer "I've got 500000 watt *but only for 1ms*" trend from 2000 onwards, like most of us, and was just checking on me :)

EDIT
Real world comparison:
Pedalhead is a bit louder than a Friedman Twin Sister (JTM45) at 16ohm in mono, a bit less with 2x16ohm cabs (when measuring only one side)
At that point both are pushing more than 80W rms. Pedalhead internal power supply is 150W rms, in stereo there is some more safety margin to not trigger the OC.

 

[Chocol8]

Did I pass the test?

Send me a beta unit to test and I will let you know!