Digital Igloo (Eric Klein, YGG)

[Perrymusica]

Might want to give this a read.

Public consensus is that, regardless of whether Helix's amps sound "better" or not, they are still the most accurate, at least to the specific amps we modeled. This is because Line 6 is the only hardware company (except for maybe UA and... Strymon?) that straight brute force models from the subcomponent up. Most other companies build from a schematic (which may be inaccurate!) with DSP LEGOs and often don't even have the real amp to compare against. If our amps weren't accurate, then countless double-blind A/B/X tests with golden ear engineers and session musicians would prove this out. In this particular case, the playback system is identical—a real cab—and in a few cases, we can pass null tests against the real thing. If another company applies some secret sauce to compensate for ""FRFR"" use, their amps are by definition LESS accurate to the original amp. For example, one company cuts the lows going into the amp, boosts lows coming out of the amp, and sometimes inserts audio compression to exaggerate sag. Whether that sounds good or not, it is NOT accurate—it's applying studio production trickery to fool rubes into believing it's more accurate.

Again, not saying our amps sound or feel objectively better—only that they are nigh identical in sound and feel to the original amps we modeled. Because unlike most other companies, we maintain the real amps in our building and constantly compare them.

Thank you very much for your answer Eric! It is always an honor for me to be able to speak with you directly. The "problem" is not in the amp block, that is perfectly emulated and I love it! The problem is between the interaction between the amp block and Legged cabinet system emulation (cabinet dimensions + speaker model), that interaction is what makes the difference and then After more than 1 year of testing I managed to solve it! The best thing, as I always say, is to try it, in misleading words or videos you don't feel or hear that difference, you have to play it yourself in some "FRFR" or PA. Is there any way I can share my work with you? I'll send it to you by email or whatever you tell me. It would be a pleasure.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Thank you very much for your answer Eric! It is always an honor for me to be able to speak with you directly. The "problem" is not in the amp block, that is perfectly emulated and I love it! The problem is between the interaction between the amp block and Legged cabinet system emulation (cabinet dimensions + speaker model), that interaction is what makes the difference and then After more than 1 year of testing I managed to solve it! The best thing, as I always say, is to try it, in misleading words or videos you don't feel or hear that difference, you have to play it yourself in some ""FRFR"" or PA. Is there any way I can share my work with you? I'll send it to you by email or whatever you tell me. It would be a pleasure.

PM sent.

 

[Foxmeister]

The problem with Line6 emulations is that it doesn't feel like a real amp, it lacks the punch and feel of a real amp when you use """FRFR""" or PA (a feeling that Fractal does give you, the Kemper Boss Gt1000 with its AIRD technology) .

I'm not going to disparage your entirely valid subjective opinion, but I "started" with the Helix (my Firehawk FX not withstanding) and since then I've tried the NDSP Quad Cortex, the Fractal FM3 and FM9, the Kemper Player, and Boss tech via the ME-90, the IR-2 and the Gigcaster 5, and IKs ToneX pedal.

Through the same playback systems, which range from amp FX return, power amp and guitar cab, FRFRs, and headphones, I've never noticed anything lacking in the "feel" of the Line 6 units, not even subjectivity worse than the other units.

IMO, "feel" is such a nebulous concept, that I'm prepared to accept that others genuinely do notice a significant difference - I'm just at a loss to explain why that might be or why it isn't an issue for me.

Ultimately, I think if the Helix was missing some harmonic content when compared to the reference amp, it would be readily noticeable, so if any perceived difference in "feel" isn't from missing or additional harmonic content, I've no idea how Line 6 could improve on this.

 

[yeky83]

Public consensus is that, regardless of whether Helix's amps sound "better" or not, they are still the most accurate

Public consensus...?

This is because Line 6 is the only hardware company (except for maybe UA and... Strymon?) that straight brute force models from the subcomponent up. Most other companies build from a schematic (which may be inaccurate!) with DSP LEGOs and often don't even have the real amp to compare against.

Fractal...?

 

[Perrymusica]

I'm not going to disparage your entirely valid subjective opinion, but I "started" with the Helix (my Firehawk FX not withstanding) and since then I've tried the NDSP Quad Cortex, the Fractal FM3 and FM9, the Kemper Player, and Boss tech via the ME-90, the IR-2 and the Gigcaster 5, and IKs ToneX pedal.

Through the same playback systems, which range from amp FX return, power amp and guitar cab, FRFRs, and headphones, I've never noticed anything lacking in the "feel" of the Line 6 units, not even subjectivity worse than the other units.

IMO, "feel" is such a nebulous concept, that I'm prepared to accept that others genuinely do notice a significant difference - I'm just at a loss to explain why that might be or why it isn't an issue for me.

Ultimately, I think if the Helix was missing some harmonic content when compared to the reference amp, it would be readily noticeable, so if any perceived difference in "feel" isn't from missing or additional harmonic content, I've no idea how Line 6 could improve on this.

If you tried the Helix vs NDSP Quad Cortex, the Fractal FM3 and FM9, the Kemper Player, or a real amp and you don't notice the difference in presence and punch, then we will never understand each other, and that's fine, there is nothing bad at that. There are people who care a lot about the real amp feel in "FRFR", and there are people who don't and are happy. I work for those looking for that real amp feel on the Helix through "FRFR" or PA. It is a smaller group of people, but it exists. Make the Helix in "FRFR" or PA kick like that real amp for example

 

[Foxmeister]

There are people who care a lot about the real amp feel in """FRFR""", and there are people who don't and are happy.

Why do you assume I don't care?

I do - I just happen to disagree that the Helix is somehow lacking when compared to the other modelling platforms, which was the *entire* point of my post (I didn't say anything about real amps).

FWIW, IMO none of the modellers I've tried have quite the same "heft" as a real tube amp at volume, but all of them get very close when using a decent power amp and cab, and all of them are more distant when using an "FRFR" or a PA-type speaker.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

FWIW, IMO none of the modellers I've tried have quite the same "heft" as a real tube amp at volume, but all of them get very close when using a decent power amp and cab, and all of them are more distant when using an ""FRFR"" or a PA-type speaker.

If you do more than a year of research, you might find the One Trick that fixes all of these problems for you, and you can then talk vaguely about it on Internet forums.

 

[JiveTurkey]

If you do more than a year of research, you might find the One Trick that fixes all of these problems for you, and you can then talk vaguely about it on Internet forums.

 

[Perrymusica]

¿Por qué asumes que no me importa?

Sí, simplemente no estoy de acuerdo con que Helix de alguna manera carece en comparación con las otras plataformas de modelado, que fue el punto *completo* de mi publicación (no dije nada sobre amplificadores reales).

FWIW, en mi opinión, ninguno de los modeladores que he probado tiene el mismo "peso" que un amplificador de válvulas real en volumen, pero todos se acercan mucho cuando se usa un amplificador de potencia y una cabina decentes, y todos están más distantes cuando utilizando un ""FRFR"" o un altavoz tipo PA.

Why do you assume I don't care?

I do - I just happen to disagree that the Helix is somehow lacking when compared to the other modelling platforms, which was the *entire* point of my post (I didn't say anything about real amps).

FWIW, IMO none of the modellers I've tried have quite the same "heft" as a real tube amp at volume, but all of them get very close when using a decent power amp and cab, and all of them are more distant when using an ""FRFR"" or a PA-type speaker.

Exact! that is the point!. When you use the Helix with a power amp and a real cab it sounds much better than when you use the Helix live to "FRFR" or PA (which sounds distant or like the "FRFR" is covered by a blanket). That's what I'm working on to correct, that the Helix in "FRFR" kicks like in Amp and cab Real.

 

[Mookyshoots]

Exact! that is the point!. When you use the Helix with a power amp and a real cab it sounds much better than when you use the Helix live to ""FRFR"" or PA (which sounds distant or like the ""FRFR"" is covered by a blanket). That's what I'm working on to correct, that the Helix in ""FRFR"" kicks like in Amp and cab Real.

I never got "FRFR" to be honest. I always thought it sounded horrible because you're trying to trick your ears and brain into thinking a PA speaker is a guitar cab when acoustically/sonically, they aren't remotely the same, good IRs or not.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

because you're trying to trick your ears and brain into thinking a PA speaker is a guitar cab

Perhaps that's why you found it to sound horrible. Same happens to me when I try to trick my taste buds into thinking I'm drinking milk when it's actually lemonade.

 

[Mookyshoots]

Perhaps that's why you found it to sound horrible. Same happens to me when I try to trick my taste buds into thinking I'm drinking milk when it's actually lemonade.

Exactly. I'm using a the Cat100 with the GSG amp model using 4CM into my Stomp XL with a WGS ET90 in the Cat100 cab and it sounds great. IRs are fantastic in a DAW environment but that's it.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Exactly. I'm using a the Cat100 with the GSG amp model using 4CM into my Stomp XL with a WGS ET90 in the Cat100 cab and it sounds great. IRs are fantastic in a DAW environment but that's it.

Imagine if you had a tube amp

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Exactly. I'm using a the Cat100 with the GSG amp model using 4CM into my Stomp XL with a WGS ET90 in the Cat100 cab and it sounds great. IRs are fantastic in a DAW environment but that's it.

I find that when I don't try to trick my tastebuds into thinking I'm drinking milk, the lemonade is quite tasty.

 

[Mookyshoots]

Imagine if you had a tube amp

Maybe my comments lack context. I have a disabled child who's extremely sound sensitive, so I can only play at conversation volume levels. Tube amps make no sense unless I run them through an attenuator and at that point, why not use a model and save myself the compromise? Am I missing the extra 10%? I don't know and don't really care. It sounds good to me and that's what matters.

My point was that trying to mimic something that creates sound based on physical movement is a completely different thing compared to replicating a simple electrical circuit.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Maybe my comments lack context. I have a disabled child who's extremely sound sensitive, so I can only play at conversation volume levels. Tube amps make no sense unless I run them through an attenuator and at that point, why not use a model and save myself the compromise? Am I missing the extra 10%? I don't know and don't really care. It sounds good to me and that's what matters.

My point was that trying to mimic something that creates sound based on physical movement is a completely different thing compared to replicating a simple electrical circuit.

Context is good. I was joking and being a


Good on you for being a good dad. It sounds like a challenge and that obviously can be tough. I feel you 100% on the loading down amps via attenuator and using headphones or whatever other not-ideal to get a 1:1 experience monitoring solution. Use what works, certainly!

 

[Mookyshoots]

Context is good. I was joking and being a


Good on you for being a good dad. It sounds like a challenge and that obviously can be tough. I feel you 100% on the loading down amps via attenuator and using headphones or whatever other not-ideal to get a 1:1 experience monitoring solution. Use what works, certainly!

No worries at all.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Fractal...?

AFIAK, Fractal's process doesn't involve brute force measurement of every component from a real torn-apart amp on a bench—for every amp model. To do Line 6's method right, that $#!‡ takes weeks per channel. We have many dozens of amps in our climate-controlled museum and studios to prove it.

Many other companies build amp models based on little more than schematics they find online and the hope is that if they piece all their DSP blocks together just right, the end result sounds really close. But there are a few problems:

• Schematics are sometimes wrong. Sometimes they're released/leaked wrong on purpose
• Schematics are sometimes incomplete. Sometimes they're released/leaked incomplete on purpose
• Schematics don't account for dozens of audible artifacts, gremlins, crosstalk, leaks, and component interactions inherent in the system, things that only appear after lots of listening
• The company's current library of DSP components may not be able to describe the unpredictable (or straight bizarre) behavior of certain channels at certain knob/switch settings

I have every confidence that Fractal takes the above (and much more) into account. And I'm sure many, many real amps have been on their benches. Not so much for a lot of other companies.

Nor am I implying that Line 6's brute force approach is better in any way. Or even that we'll continue to brute force in the future, because honestly, it's pretty damn inefficient. Only that we're able to perform double-blind A/B/X listening tests against the actual serial numbered amp until it sounds and feels identical to the actual serial numbered amp, warts and all. The notion that Line 6 amps aren't "accurate" is total nonsense because accuracy can be measured by test machines and whatever intangibles are left can be measured by an army of LA-based engineers/studio musicians. And unless a company is actually A/B/Xing against the real amps as well (many don't!), they're by definition less accurate, even if one happens to prefer their sound/feel. And of course "accuracy" means nothing when 95% of your customers have never played the real thing anyway.

Of course accuracy doesn't apply to any Line 6 Original amps, because there's no real-world analog to A/B/X against. The exception is Ben's Cartographer, because that amp actually exists.

Y'all should keep this in the Helix Talk thread anyway.

 

[BahamaDada]

I asked this a few days ago so sorry to bring it up again:

What is the reason for the HX Originals not having Master volumes? Checked the 3.7 release notes, but there isn't any info.

Again. I like it this way. One less thing to care about.

 

[norminal]

AFIAK, Fractal's process doesn't involve brute force measurement of every component from a real torn-apart amp on a bench—for every amp model.

I’m pretty sure this is FAS’s approach as well, aside from the originals and models that are specifically noted as being modeled from existing schematics (Ford Dumble), as Cliff likes to have the amp or pedal in his possession to be modeled.