Difficulty With Alt-Picking While Palm Muting

[TSJMajesty]

One of the songs that I'm using as a "Technique Improvement" exercise is the solo in Bark At The Moon. The part that's giving me trouble is the run-up part before that blazing 16th-note triplet ending. (Here's a link. Starts at measure 92, and everything on the 3 lowest strings is plam-muted.)

The problem I'm having is with the pick slant. When I palm-mute, the pick naturally has a downward slope. It just seems that as I try to rotate the pick to a vertical position, my palm wants to lift off the bridge, and there goes my palm mutes. So getting all that back-and-forth from string to string in that riff is literally tripping me up when I change strings, due to needing to get that downward slope pulled back somewhat for each of the up-strokes.

Oh, and if I try to hold the pick differently, kinda pulling back on that downward slope, it just feels completely unnatural. But I realize this may indeed be what I simply have to train myself to do differently. Either that, or play the song on a different guitar, like a LP, that has the bridge higher up off the top of the guitar.

Anybody else experience this, and have any tips? Maybe playing fast alt-picked, palm-muted riffs is just a whole 'nother technique that needs its own focus, along with lots of practice...?

 

[la szum]

Have you watched how Jake plays that section? I am just wondering how he approaches
it, and if that might be helpful.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Bark at the Moon is to me super difficult to play correctly. Rhythm part and solo. The whole thing is very clean and precise.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Have you watched how Jake plays that section? I am just wondering how he approaches
it, and if that might be helpful.

I knew there was something I forgot to do when I saw him with Ozzy. I guess I didn't think ahead to the point when almost 40 years later I'd wanna learn his shit.

No, I haven't. Did watch a Ben Eller video once though. He didn't elaborate about this sort of thing. You know how some people need shoes with extra arch support, because their feet have high arches? I think my palms have high arches.

 

[la szum]

I knew there was something I forgot to do when I saw him with Ozzy. I guess I didn't think ahead to the point when almost 40 years later I'd wanna learn his s**t.

No, I haven't. Did watch a Ben Eller video once though. He didn't elaborate about this sort of thing. You know how some people need shoes with extra arch support, because their feet have high arches? I think my palms have high arches.

Haha! Pretty sure there is some excellent live video of Jake out there.

I am a right hand anchor kind of guy and it's too late for me to be changing now.
Alternate picked, palm-muted runs are the shit!!

 

[la szum]

Looks like Jake's right hand is anchored pretty tight to me.

I know this doesn't help. Just fun to revisit one of the best hard rock
guitar performances ever laid down by man.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Sigh. Just when I think I'm gaining on it...

 

[la szum]

Is it me, or is the live version above even better than the studio one?

 

[Fireproof]

Really cool song and crazy cool guitar work.

 

[Bruce]

The way Jake does it doesn’t really matter. He picks how its comfortable and ergonomic for him. Picking position is a very individualistic thing. However it is you pick, work with the metronome up to speed until these articulations you're chasing are happening. Chasing someone else’s approach will never work. Lord knows I’ve tried and I still pick how I pick.

 

[TSJMajesty]

The way Jake does it doesn’t really matter. He picks how its comfortable and ergonomic for him. Picking position is a very individualistic thing. However it is you pick, work with the metronome up to speed until these articulations you're chasing are happening. Chasing someone else’s approach will never work. Lord knows I’ve tried and I still pick how I pick.

I tend to agree. You gotta use what works for you. Now that said, I will look at how others place their hand and hold their pick, as a starting point. But there's some serious shredders out there that insist you need to hold the pick between your thumb and between the 1st & 2nd knuckle of your index finger, with your fingers closed, and there's simply no way I can do that.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Is it me, or is the live version above even better than the studio one?

It's pretty effin smokin! But those were the coke days. Lol
Actually, that was something I instantly noticed when I saw him live- how much better, to me, the songs came across live. It gave me a new appreciation for Jake-era Ozzy.

 

[Bruce]

I tend to agree. You gotta use what works for you. Now that said, I will look at how others place there hand and hold their pick, as a starting point. But there's some serious shredders out there that insist you need to hold the pick between your thumb and between the 1st & 2nd knuckle of your index finger, with your fingers closed, and there's simply no way I can do that.

Some of the most furious pickers have the most unorthodox technique. Rusty Cooley seems to get it all from the elbow.

 

[DrewJD82]

I’ve been down this rabbit hole before….

This is a spot where your regular guitar tone, as badass as it is, might be working against you. A thick/heavy/lots of distortion/low end is going to work against the palm muted notes sticking out, as where that modded/boosted Marshall thing is pretty much perfect for it because those palm mutes have all the STRIDENT pick attack in the world they need to sound out.

Just for shats and gaggles, try a random Marshall/Friedman patch in your AxeFX and play the same thing, see if it’s sounding any different.

 

[Bruce]

I’ve been down this rabbit hole before….

This is a spot where your regular guitar tone, as badass as it is, might be working against you. A thick/heavy/lots of distortion/low end is going to work against the palm muted notes sticking out, as where that modded/boosted Marshall thing is pretty much perfect for it because those palm mutes have all the STRIDENT pick attack in the world they need to sound out.

Just for shats and gaggles, try a random Marshall/Friedman patch in your AxeFX and play the same thing, see if it’s sounding any different.

Amp sag too. You really want/need an amp with a very fast response for this kind of thing. MK series Mesas come to mind.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Some of the most furious pickers have the most unorthodox technique. Rusty Cooley seems to get it all from the elbow.

So true! Ever seen Michael Angelo Batio's technique?

 

[Bruce]

So true! Ever seen Michael Angelo Batio's technique?

Yea its amazing he can still move his hands. He gets a lot of shit for how he plays but hes a really nice guy when you talk to him.

 

[la szum]

The way Jake does it doesn’t really matter. He picks how its comfortable and ergonomic for him. Picking position is a very individualistic thing. However it is you pick, work with the metronome up to speed until these articulations you're chasing are happening. Chasing someone else’s approach will never work. Lord knows I’ve tried and I still pick how I pick.

Why not? In EVERY area and endeavour in life if you follow those who excel more then we
can pick up tricks and clues and hints and techniques that further our progress. If what you
say were true then why would any of the great and iconic players make how to videos??

It makes perfect sense to me to see how someone superior in skill than I am does something
so I can save some time and not try to reinvent the wheel. It applies to everything----from cooking
food, to carpentry, to raising kids, to investing, and to guitar playing. Doesn't mean we will be
an exact copy or clone..... but if none of us ever learned from anyone else then we wouldn't have
these things called "civilization" and "culture."

 

[la szum]

Our brain even has mirrror neurons for us to develop and grow good and
bad habits based on what we see others do. Mirroring is intrinsic to our nature.
We will do it regardless.

 

[Bruce]

Why not? In EVERY area and endeavour in life if you follow those who excel more then we
can pick up tricks and clues and hints and techniques that further our progress. If what you
say were true then why would any of the great and iconic players make how to videos??

It makes perfect sense to me to see how someone superior in skill than I am does something
so I can save some time and not try to reinvent the wheel. It applies to everything----from cooking
food, to carpentry, to raising kids, to investing, and to guitar playing. Doesn't mean we will be
an exact copy or clone..... but if none of us ever learned from anyone else then we wouldn't have
these things called "civilization" and "culture."

It’s roughly equal to watching a porn to learn how to bang your wife better. Sure you may pick up a few pointers but its a highly individual and personal motion that really needs to work for your own anatomy.