Clones and copies?

SillyOctpuss said:
I've read about a company contracting a Chinese factory to build their design. After the initial fun of pedals was finished the Chinese factory did another run for themselves with different UV printing on the enclosures but the pedal was exactly the same.
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This precisely the reason when THD made 6000 Hot Plates a year and I wanted to move production to China the boss wasn’t game.
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
This precisely the reason when THD made 6000 Hot Plates a year and I wanted to move production to China the boss wasn’t game.
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You wanted to move production TO China, after seeing them rip off someone else? That seems odd.

EDIT

Oh wait, you wanted to, then the boss wasn't game because that had happened?
 
SillyOctpuss said:
Pedals which have the look, fonts, names of the pedal they've cloned and the original manufacturer on it. Same as chibsons IMO.
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Yes. The biggest expense/cost/investment/creativity for most successful pedal builders is less about designing "new" circuits, it's in building a desirable brand. When you start ripping that stuff off, you are taking a legally recognized IP interest - and the thing of most value from the pedal maker.
paisleywookiee said:
Interesting, good to know. I'm obviously not a lawyer of any sort. At what point would a Klon have been original, and if so did Finnegan patent it, I wonder? Is there any example of any pedal's circuit design being patented? Genuinely curious. I know there was the EHX POG/Mooer drama, but I believe that was copyrighted software code, not a patented circuit design.
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A combination of things already known in the art to achieve a predictable result = not patentable. “It sounds a little better to some guitarists” does not take one out of predictable result territory. It’s still doing exactly what one predicts - the tone control…acts like a tone control. The clipping parts…act like clipping parts.

If it were the first preamp-type circuit to include a charge pump in the box itself, maybe. But even that - it’s not like it was unknown to run overdrives at higher voltages.
 
paisleywookiee said:
I mean, the gist is 30-40 years ago, maybe more, rich people decided they wanted to make more money, and off-shored everything. (...)
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Chocol8 said:
No, what happened was middle class consumers decided to mostly buy cheaper options whenever they had a choice and companies either off shored or went out of business.
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Perhaps a "Which part of the scissors is cutting the paper?" situation...
 
Richard_G said:
Perhaps a "Which part of the scissors is cutting the paper?" situation...
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Not really. Rich people and companies can’t make people buy crap they don’t want. Consumers decide what they buy, and they have overwhelmingly chosen cheaper rather than domestic.
 
Chocol8 said:
Not really. Rich people and companies can’t make people buy crap they don’t want. Consumers decide what they buy, and they have overwhelmingly chosen cheaper rather than domestic.
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or theres no avenue to try expensive options post interwebz destruction of brick and mortar stores, so people try different circuits because opportunity cost is too high for the high dollar stuff.

good is good, but ive played some good copies that werent expensive.
 
Eagle said:
Many people are not decerning and get sold stuff.
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Right. Back when there was still US manufacturing, people generally weren’t “I wish they’d move this to China, lower the price a little bit, but make far bigger profits for the company”.
 
Eagle said:
I have no problem with people moving on from an existing design but straight up visual copying is unacceptable unless it’s to reissue something no longer available or stupid expensive.
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SillyOctpuss said:
I don't have a huge problem with clones tbh. It'd be incredibly hypocritical if I did seeing as how my whole board is made up of them. The big difference is I never copy the trade dress of the pedals I'm cloning and I only build for myself. I'm not trying to sell them.

I know a few people who own pedal companies, most of them come from the DIY scene so all cut their teeth building clones and they're not too bothered by someone building a clone for themselves or their friends. Their bigger headache is Chinese companies selling 5000 units for £20, especially if they got the circuit wrong or use the wrong spec components. Someone tries the clone, thinks it's shit and then assumes the original must suck too even though the clone might not be a proper representation of the original.

I also know a builder who has had people try to get them to look at their faulty pedal only to find out they've got a straight up fake and didn't know it.
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Yep these things right here. I’m completely unphased by clones. have At it

Ripping trade dress on the other hand is a massive issue in 99% of scenarios though

I think most builders are wanting set themselves apart anyway when building clone making “change/improvement X” to the circuit anyway (obviously aside from cheapo junk brands that are that are ripping trade dress too). And in fact we should be grateful for that as that’s why we made it from RCA circuits to all the diverse options out there today
 
I don’t have issue with something like the Wampler Pantheon Deluxe, because it’s like yeah, it’s a KOT deal, but hey we added MIDI, changed one of the circuits, added different EQ, etc.

But DemonFX can chew on a bag of broken glass.
 
I bought their King of Drive for like $40. A used OG costs around $800. No shame here.

I can get an OG BE-OD for a little over a bird and would rather do that than buy this.
 
Chocol8 said:
Chinese companies have been doing that will all sorts of products from cups and coolers to electronics.
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Guitars, too...

There was a rumour posted on T.O.P. a decade or so ago, by someone that would know, that second generation Chibsons were made by Epiphone factory trained "luthiers", in a factory that previously had manufactured/assembled Epiphones for Gibson.

There's a chance.gif
 
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paisleywookiee said:
Right. Back when there was still US manufacturing, people generally weren’t “I wish they’d move this to China, lower the price a little bit, but make far bigger profits for the company”.
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It is more about volume sales and zero responsibility for a workforce than excessive profits on each item. Also this industry can’t help itself from discounting everything to a point where you can’t do anything else. Forever trying to hit a price point that is not based in the reality of the market.
Example.
In 1982 Fender introduced the Squire Strat at £199 40 years later the Affinity Squire Strat is £189 . This is because they used every tool in the capitalist system to keep the price point and seriously devalue the product in the process.The two guitars are obviously not equal in fact they hardly share any similarities but both serve the same purpose in the Fender range. The race to the bottom has kept the margin squeezed. It’s not about excessive profit margins. Strandberg use Cort to hit a price point with a similar margin achieved by other companies. Taking out the need to maintain a workforce or a factory but this has its own problems. QC becomes far more difficult to police.
The worst guitars on the market are the ones the concentrate on “added value “ the flame top veneer , the pearl pick guard. Too good to be true hardware. The shit with glitter on category that fools so many. Sire is a good example and at the other end of price Duesenberg. In fact Duesenberg guitars probably have the highest profit margin of anything I see . The whole premise is build added value in to the branding and pass off a cheap product as something higher end. Everything on them is OEM from budget builders so you have no points of comparison. The obfuscation of the original Korean budget factory that built them.
 
Eagle said:
It is more about volume sales and zero responsibility for a workforce than excessive profits on each item. Also this industry can’t help itself from discounting everything to a point where you can’t do anything else. Forever trying to hit a price point that is not based in the reality of the market.
Example.
In 1982 Fender introduced the Squire Strat at £199 40 years later the Affinity Squire Strat is £189 . This is because they used every tool in the capitalist system to keep the price point and seriously devalue the product in the process.The two guitars are obviously not equal in fact they hardly share any similarities but both serve the same purpose in the Fender range. The race to the bottom has kept the margin squeezed. It’s not about excessive profit margins. Strandberg use Cort to hit a price point with a similar margin achieved by other companies. Taking out the need to maintain a workforce or a factory but this has its own problems. QC becomes far more difficult to police.
The worst guitars on the market are the ones the concentrate on “added value “ the flame top veneer , the pearl pick guard. Too good to be true hardware. The shit with glitter on category that fools so many. Sire is a good example and at the other end of price Duesenberg. In fact Duesenberg guitars probably have the highest profit margin of anything I see . The whole premise is build added value in to the branding and pass off a cheap product as something higher end. Everything on them is OEM from budget builders so you have no points of comparison. The obfuscation of the original Korean budget factory that built them.
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In the 80s when Rockinger started that Düsenberg thing it was as ill thought out as it’s now but seemingly they keep on trucking.
 
Sascha Franck said:
We've been discussing this before. And quite unfortunately, you still don't have a clue.
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you really need to find out what you are talking about before making a fool of yourself. They are made in Croatia now but still out of the same OEM garbage.
 
Eagle said:
you really need to find out what you are talking about before making a fool of yourself. They are made in Croatia now but still out of the same OEM garbage.
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As said before, I know some of the guys. And according to your "In fact Duesenberg guitars probably have the highest profit margin of anything I see" statement, they should all be millionaires by now. Just that they aren't.
In addition, lots of pretty high profile players like their instruments. Sure, these players all have no idea of what they're talking about because Mr. Eagle of internet fame says so.
 
If Larry Carlton can play Sire quality has very little to do with a marketing deal. Think what you like. What I said true. Go and play your Johnny Depp signature model and marvel at the quality.
 
paisleywookiee said:
Right. Back when there was still US manufacturing, people generally weren’t “I wish they’d move this to China, lower the price a little bit, but make far bigger profits for the company”.
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No, but they looked at two different brands of whatever and chose the cheaper imported one because it did the same job for less money. RCA vs Panasonic, GE vs Samsung etc. Also, initially it was made in Japan or Taiwan, before the Chinese export boom.

If you are old enough you might remember Walmart trying to push “made in USA” for many years. They had to give up, because consumers cared more about cheap.

Another great example is people love to complain about smaller and smaller airline seats with ever worsening service, yet when they go to plan their next trip they go online and find the cheapest airfare. So yeah, companies deliver what consumers want to buy.
 
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