Cabs and Dispersion

marsonic

Roadie
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117
So...we all "know" that 4x12s are beamy and 2x12s spread out vertically or horizontally opposite to the arrangement of the speakers. And that we all describe things in vague guitarist-isms or hifi-isms.

Has anyone measured and published visualizations of the dispersion characteristics of different cab designs?
 
Illustrations??
Imagin’stration’s..

The simple answer is..push.
If you want the driver’s to be driven ..
then put’cha weight on it’.

Fire in the hole it🤘🏻

Creating motion into sound baby!!!



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PLUS



1697221689872.jpeg
 
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So...we all "know" that 4x12s are beamy and 2x12s spread out vertically or horizontally opposite to the arrangement of the speakers. And that we all describe things in vague guitarist-isms or hifi-isms.

Has anyone measured and published visualizations of the dispersion characteristics of different cab designs?
So all this time I’ve avoided vertical 2x12 thinking I needed them horizontal for better side to side fill?!?

how about semi open back 2x12’s do they still have that characteristic? I have a pair of Avatar 2x12 with oval opening in back. I love them but if turning it up horizontal style will give even more spread I’m doing it!
 
So all this time I’ve avoided vertical 2x12 thinking I needed them horizontal for better side to side fill?!?

how about semi open back 2x12’s do they still have that characteristic? I have a pair of Avatar 2x12 with oval opening in back. I love them but if turning it up horizontal style will give even more spread I’m doing it!

I'm under the impression that's the case, because people have said it a lot. But...apparently, no one's actually measured and graphed it.
 
Yes, but their behaviors contain no surprises to anyone who understands the principles involved.

I'd still find value in seeing it.

There are a lot of examples in audio/music where people create descriptions/explanations that have nothing to do with reality but still lead to good decisions.
 
I'd still find value in seeing it.
Seeing it how? And how much "value" do you expect to find? Collecting raw data is one thing, albeit a highly nontrivial one. Processing it for graphic display requires decisions about what kind of display to create and requires substantial time, effort, and skill.

There are a lot of examples in audio/music where people create descriptions/explanations that have nothing to do with reality but still lead to good decisions.
It's not clear exactly what would motivate such a remark, nor have I seen any evidence that it is correct. Sometimes a good decision is the result of nothing but blind luck, but I submit that having valid data and a real understanding of the underlying principles will reliably lead to better decisions.
 
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Seeing it how? And how much "value" do you expect to find? Collecting raw data is one thing, albeit a highlly nontrivial one. Processing it for graphic display requires decisions about what kind of display to create and requires substantial time, effort, and skill.


It's not clear exactly what would motivate such a remark, nor have I seen any evidence that it is correct. Sometimes a good decision is the result of nothing but blind luck, but I submit that having valid data and a real understanding of the underlying principles will reliably lead to better decisions.
Desperation is the Mother of invention🎯
 
Seeing it how? And how much "value" do you expect to find? Collecting raw data is one thing, albeit a highly nontrivial one. Processing it for graphic display requires decisions about what kind of display to create and requires substantial time, effort, and skill.

Well, such things exist for hifi and monitor speakers. I think it would be nice to be able to visualize it, partially to figure out why so many people seem to prefer horizontal 2x12s and 4x12s even when it seems like vertical 2x12s should do more of what a lot of people claim to want.

That's really the question I'm trying to answer for myself.

It's not clear exactly what would motivate such a remark, nor have I seen any evidence that it is correct.

Really? It's mostly to do with how people describe subtle differences.

One example is "tube warmth". If they're runninng linear, then okay....but it depends on the circuit involved. If you're talking about an amplifier (not necessarily a guitar amp in this context), the low damping factor essentially creates a low-pass filter. So...fair. But if you're talking about line in and out from some piece of studio gear running nonlinear, it adds overtones, which necessarily makes the sound brighter, not warmer, and may but doesn't automatically also low-pass, which means the overtones increase upper-mids and highs and the device might roll off some of the top octave or so (but often doesn't). But, it's not correct to describe the sound as "warmer", even though almost everyone does.

Another is a preference you'll see from a lot of mixing or mastering engineers for tube EQs. They claim it's from added harmonic complexity, despite the fact that these devices are usually completely linear or at most add a tiny bit of octave (the plugin emulations tend to distort a lot more than the hardware) and the actual reason for the preference is the slightly odd curves that people tend to create with them that they would probably never think to create if they were drawing a response curve on a modern digital EQ, which actually comes from the parallel EQ topology (sum of band pass results) rather than anything inherent to tube circuits.

Parallel compression is another. Unless you're getting actual distortion out of the compressor, what you're doing when you turn down the mix knob is lowering the ratio and adding make-up gain...but people swear it gets different results. Some people are still convinced that parallel compression and upward compression are equivalent, despite the fact that the transfer functions look nothing alike.

There are a lot more examples. Those are the first few I thought of.

I'm not convinced that many of these misunderstandings lead to sub-standard or bad results, but the explanations for them...don't make any sense.
 
Well, such things exist for hifi and monitor speakers.
That brought a chuckle. The "things" that exist that are published seldom have much in common with what the speakers actually do. I know of a specific example in which one of the world's best-known audiophile speaker manufacturers had an independent loudspeaker test lab - one of two in the US equipped for the purpose - take a full directivity data set on one of their flagship models. The lab's owner had to increase his liability insurance coverage in order to be comfortable having the speaker on his premises. The data were so abysmally bad that the manufacturer sent the same speaker to the other lab hoping to get a better result. To this day, the data from neither lab has been published.

I think it would be nice to be able to visualize it, partially to figure out why so many people seem to prefer horizontal 2x12s and 4x12s even when it seems like vertical 2x12s should do more of what a lot of people claim to want.
"Seem to prefer" is doing a lot of work there. Perhaps folks just don't like the appearance of a 2x12 cab placed on its end. I've seen decisions made on a lot less significant considerations....
One example is "tube warmth". If you're talking about an amplifier (not necessarily a guitar amp in this context), the low damping factor essentially creates a low-pass filter.
If you want to see loudspeaker directivity graphically presented, see: Common Loudspeaker Format . There's a free data viewer and data files from lots of manufacturers there (no guitar cabs, though).

Here's a screenshot from the viewer:
CLFexample.jpg
 
There is an interesting question here.

@jay mitchell Graphical displays aside, would you happen to know if high frequency rolloff is more or less pronounced as the angle from on-axis listening increases with any given straight baffle 2x12 or 1x12 cab relative to any given straight baffle 4x12 cab?

Intuitively I would think in the real world where a cab's vertical placement would be fixed while the listener can walk to the left or right, any cab with multiple speakers arranged horizontally (4x12 and horizontal 2x12 cabs) would be more "beamy" than cabs with a single speaker per horizontal plane (1x12 or vertical 2x12) because for any point you use as a reference, as you angle outward, you're going to hear the added effect of the "farther away" speakers mixed in with the closer speakers. The "farther away" speakers will inherently be darker due to the slightly increased angle from on-axis listening relative to the closer speakers, which will darken the sound overall compared to being off axis from just a single speaker.

like this:
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Is this (simplified and exaggerated model) correct, broadly speaking?
 
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I can speak for one of the uneducated making questionable (ignorant) choices.
I never considered the cab had an effect on dispersion other than a 2x12 has a wider placement of the drivers in horizontal state. Im my mind the source of the sound is a perfect circle so two 12" wide sources were occupying a broader face than when vertically placed therefore, all things being equal, horizontal=wider delivery. But what I didn't consider is all things aren't equal.

But I don't need a graph, I have Jay. Does a semi open back oval opening on the back of the 2x12 negate the benefit of vertical orientation?
 
That brought a chuckle. The "things" that exist that are published seldom have much in common with what the speakers actually do. I know of a specific example in which one of the world's best-known audiophile speaker manufacturers had an independent loudspeaker test lab - one of two in the US equipped for the purpose - take a full directivity data set on one of their flagship models. The lab's owner had to increase his liability insurance coverage in order to be comfortable having the speaker on his premises. The data were so abysmally bad that the manufacturer sent the same speaker to the other lab hoping to get a better result. To this day, the data from neither lab has been published.

So, you don't find value in any of the independent measurements from kippel near field scanners that a handful of people have been doing? Either way...why?

That story seems....ridiculous to me.
 
So, you don't find value in any of the independent measurements from kippel near field scanners that a handful of people have been doing?
I made no such statement. However, in order for me to have full confidence in far field predictions based on near field measurements, there would need to be a body of comparative data in which a speaker is measured in both the near and far fields and the data then verified to be a good match. I know of no such body of information. If you do, please provide a reference. The technique itself is not unique to Klippel, BTW. It's been around for awhile.

That story seems....ridiculous to me.
Are you suggesting that you don't believe it? It really did happen, and it's not by any means the only time a speaker manufacturer was made aware of unpleasant attributes of one of their designs and chose simply not to disclose the information.
 
@jay mitchell Graphical displays aside, would you happen to know if high frequency rolloff is more or less pronounced as the angle from on-axis listening increases with any given straight baffle 2x12 or 1x12 cab relative to any given straight baffle 4x12 cab?
Yes.
The "farther away" speakers will inherently be darker due to the slightly increased angle from on-axis listening relative to the closer speakers,
This has literally zero perceptible effect. At any practical distance from a guitar cab, the angular differences among different speakers to a given listening point are small enough so as not to cause detectible response differences.

The audible effect of an array of cone transducers on off-axis response is entirely due to differences in arrival times of the sound from different speakers. This causes phase differences that vary with frequency and cause some frequencies to be reinforced and others to be cancelled.

Is this (simplified and exaggerated model) correct, broadly speaking?
No.
 
Are you suggesting that you don't believe it? It really did happen, and it's not by any means the only time a speaker manufacturer was made aware of unpleasant attributes of one of their designs and chose simply not to disclose the information.

I believe that a speaker manufacturer would refuse to publish data that goes against their marketing, easily. (ETA: very easily. There are a decent number of extremely well regarded speakers in the studio world that I think are total junk, not just NS-10s sounding bad but being "useful"...actually high end speakers.)

It was the line about liability insurance. I can't figure out why that's relevant.

I made no such statement. However, in order for me to have full confidence in far field predictions based on near field measurements, there would need to be a body of comparative data in which a speaker is measured in both the near and far fields and the data then verified to be a good match. I know of no such body of information. If you do, please provide a reference. The technique itself is not unique to Klippel, BTW. It's been around for awhile.

Fair enough. So, your contention is that it's just the theory predicting comb filtering as you move along the same axis as the speaker placement, and that any further visualizations are pointless because "it just sounds like comb filtering as you move", yes?
 
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