Any folks connected to component prices and cost to assemble? NAM player

KingsXJJ

KingsXJJ

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If any one here knows about manufacturing and component costs, I’d be interested in their analysis (or educated guess) on what it might take/cost for a company like Hotone, Nux, Mooer, etc… to build and ship a NAM player. Something built along the same hardware quality as their current products.

I think it might be a golden opportunity for them and the platform if something is possible and compelling.
 
The components in those units are not powerful enough to run NAMs natively, which is why they are so cheap to mass produce.
Some of them now already ''convert'' NAMs via a script, to whatever their format (which is mostly akin to the 'kemper style' tone match method).
 
Dom Mcsweeney said:
The components in those units are not powerful enough to run NAMs natively, which is why they are so cheap to mass produce.
Some of them now already ''convert'' NAMs via a script, to whatever their format (which is mostly akin to the 'kemper style' tone match method).
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I think you may have misread the question. I mentioned manufacturers and component costs not products. I am curious what their likely cost would be to manufacture a NAM player.
 
You mentioned 'something built along the same hardware quality as their current products'.
Maybe this confuses me, but that wouldn't work as it's not powerful enough - so they'd have to spend a considerable amount more on components that could do the job, and a considerable amount more development time to make a dedicated system for those components to do what they need to do, and therefore price it higher than any of the current products they currently sell, and ...it goes on.
Sorry I can't give precise figures - that's not so easy for me, it's not my place to say, but maybe someone else can help there.
 
Dom Mcsweeney said:
You mentioned 'something built along the same hardware quality as their current products'.
Maybe this confuses me, but that wouldn't work as it's not powerful enough - so they'd have to spend a considerable amount more on components that could do the job, and a considerable amount more development time to make a dedicated system for those components to do what they need to do, and therefore price it higher than any of the current products they currently sell, and ...it goes on.
Sorry I can't give precise figures - that's not so easy for me, it's not my place to say, but maybe someone else can help there.
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I was referring to their hardware component’s quality. I said nothing about processing power. These manufacturers use a variety of chips and many more are available to purchase if needed.

I’ll say it once more so that it is as unambiguous as possible. What is the estimated cost to procure the necessary components and assemble them in to a product that is capable of running NAM files.
 
I can't give you a good number, but it would be very hard to do without costing more than the Tonex One given how processor inefficient NAM is in comparison. In addition to hardware costs though, there is software development, support, and maintenance costs as well.

I have been hearing talk of cheap Chinese NAM players flooding the market any day now for about 2 years. I think there are multiple reasons it hasn't happened yet.
 
Not meaning to derail - I dont get why NAM is so processor hungry and tonex is [relatively] as light as a feather ?

When running Gigfast lite -vs- Tonex iOS on my M1 iPad, I could easily run 5 x Tonex Instances -vs- 1 x Gigfast NAM !?!?!?!?!?

NAM is like maybe 2% better at null tests and also better at [not] aliasing, but from my limited understanding they each do what they do in very similar AI/ML ways .... so why is NAM such a CPU hog ?

Is it just that Tonex is very efficiently written and NAM isnt ?
 
I have pretty much no idea about DSP and what not, but I'm really wondering about how dedicated DSPs can't even manage what a single thread of my Macbook Air M3 is capable of. Not by a mile even.
I can quite easily run 4 HQ NAMs via Genome, plus a Genome cab for each and still add a fully loaded instance of HX Native in addition - all without running into crackles, at 32ms buffersize (at 44.1kHz), resulting in 3.5ms roundtrip latency. No fans needed, either.
So, that's consumer hardware - why can dedicated DSPs not at least surpass that single MBA thread?
 
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Sascha Franck said:
I have pretty much no idea about DSP and what not, but I'm really wondering about how dedicated DSPs can't even manage what a single thread of my Macbook Air M3 is capable of. Not by a mile even.
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Because your $1,200 MBA sports a general purpose high-end CPU which eats 30W just to turn on, as opposed to the low-power, consumer DSP used on most guitar gear.

In general, dedicated audio devices are very different from PCs and phones, and should not be measured with the same stick.
 
Lysander said:
Because your $1,200 MBA sports a general purpose high-end CPU which eats 30W just to turn on, as opposed to the low-power, consumer DSP used on most guitar gear.
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Well, an iPad doesn't consume as much and partially delivers comparable performance.

Lysander said:
n general, dedicated audio devices are very different from PCs and phones, and should not be measured with the same stick.
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And as they're dedicated devices, they should rather be more efficient, no?
 
BenIfin said:
Not meaning to derail - I dont get why NAM is so processor hungry and tonex is [relatively] as light as a feather ?
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Not an expert on this but my best guess is Tonex was designed by professionals with efficiency and ability to run on cost effective hardware as a major design requirement.

NAM was designed by amateurs as an open source project to maximize quality while running on PC hardware.

Different goals, different approaches, different teams leading to different results.
 
To be fair, you can change the architecture of NAMs to however you please - for example the NANO models are about the same quality as those in the Tonex, and comparable in CPU cost, or possibly better? I can't remember the exact details but I often use NANO models as I like having more CPU headroom, personally.

Thing is, most people choose 'STANDARD' models when training - possibly because people who make their own models want the highest accuracy, and their CPUs on their setups don't struggle too badly.
 
Chocol8 said:
NAM was designed by amateurs as an open source project to maximize quality while running on PC hardware.
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That's somewhat of a poorly worded statement. Steve's no amateur for sure.

That said, his mind was set to build NAM as an open-source software solution & he delivered on that goal 100%.

The hardware piece is something others, with more experience in HW design / manufacturing / assembly can take on if they so desire.

Wanted to chip in & lay it out because it's borderline unfair to make that sort of statement (intentionally or not).
 
2dor said:
That's somewhat of a poorly worded statement. Steve's no amateur for sure.

That said, his mind was set to build NAM as an open-source software solution & he delivered on that goal 100%.

The hardware piece is something others, with more experience in HW design / manufacturing / assembly can take on if they so desire.

Wanted to chip in & lay it out because it's borderline unfair to make that sort of statement (intentionally or not).
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I am not so sure. Steve was a professional at something else. As I understand it based on his statements, it was a hobby project until about 2023. Definitely not created in a professional software development environment with upfront design requirements, processes etc. He may have been well educated and had some relevant professional experience, but I think the word amateur is still very much the correct term.

Just read this for HIS take on the history:
www.neuralampmodeler.com

The History of NAM

2023 was quite the year for NAM. With the success it's had, I think it's worth it to put together a post to go back through NAM's history.This started as a "year in review post", but as I started working on it, I realized that it might be valuable to go even farther back and re-trace the steps...
www.neuralampmodeler.com www.neuralampmodeler.com
 
Chocol8 said:
I am not so sure. Steve was a professional at something else. As I understand it based on his statements, it was a hobby project until about 2023. Definitely not created in a professional software development environment with upfront design requirements, processes etc. He may have been well educated and had some relevant professional experience, but I think the word amateur is still very much the correct term.

Just read this for HIS take on the history:
www.neuralampmodeler.com

The History of NAM

2023 was quite the year for NAM. With the success it's had, I think it's worth it to put together a post to go back through NAM's history.This started as a "year in review post", but as I started working on it, I realized that it might be valuable to go even farther back and re-trace the steps...
www.neuralampmodeler.com www.neuralampmodeler.com
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The fact that it's his passion project does not make him less of a professional.
 
2dor said:
The fact that it's his passion project does not make him less of a professional.
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You must have different definitions of professional and amateur. A professional is "engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime." I would even drop the word "main" from that.

Even if he was a professional software developer, NAM was a hobby project, not developed in a professional environment or with professional level processes.

You have to really stretch definitions to say otherwise.
 
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