So I have crazy idea you guys will tear apart. How to make white-box and back box (multi-layered) work together.

KingsXJJ

KingsXJJ

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I have some of this technology on my Ampero II Stage. The HQ JP Mesa and SLO’s are all next gen black/white combos for clean, crunch and lead on both.

They sound good but what I think is missing is the equivalent of a wet/driy mix between the two or an equivalent of the Blackstar ISF that moves contour around between them.

I think that’s when we’d get a nice personalized experience. I think I’d move the JP HQ AMP to 60-70% white for example.
 
So you're saying, a simple mix of the output of both models doesn't do what you want?

Instead you want somehow like create a custom model where you say, I want 70% of reference A, and 30% of reference B?
I mean that 70% could mean anything no? Do you mean, pick attack? sag? tone stack? all of the above?

I could see this being kinda approachable in a whitebox/circuit modeling paradigm but hybrid? what do you even blend? Perhaps I lack sufficient imagination for this.
 
I think you don't quite understand how the Hotone modeling works though. In short:
  • "White box" modeling is component modeling. They model e.g gain knob and tone stack behavior so the knobs on the model work right.
  • "Black box" modeling is used for non-linearities, e.g distortion behavior.
There is no "more of one, less of the other" system here. It's two systems that work in tandem.
 
laxu said:
I think you don't quite understand how the Hotone modeling works though. In short:
  • "White box" modeling is component modeling. They model e.g gain knob and tone stack behavior so the knobs on the model work right.
  • "Black box" modeling is used for non-linearities, e.g distortion behavior.
There is no "more of one, less of the other" system here. It's two systems that work in tandem.
Click to expand...
Maybe you are right. But based on what I hear with the JP amp, it sounds like what you would get if you took a ToneX capture and blended it with a White-box model. It sounds exactly how I would imagine them to sound together. It plays that way for me too. It’s very unique in that regard when compared against the other non-HQ amps. They call it their “next-gen” modeling. At any rate, even if I’m wrong about Hotone, I like the idea of blending and balancing a capture and white-box together.
 
AlbertA said:
So you're saying, a simple mix of the output of both models doesn't do what you want?

Instead you want somehow like create a custom model where you say, I want 70% of reference A, and 30% of reference B?
I mean that 70% could mean anything no? Do you mean, pick attack? sag? tone stack? all of the above?

I could see this being kinda approachable in a whitebox/circuit modeling paradigm but hybrid? what do you even blend? Perhaps I lack sufficient imagination for this.
Click to expand...
Kind of like what I have on my Hotone Verbera, I have an IR reverb and an algo reverb. I can tweak each separately and then balance and blend them together. So something just like that but with an amp capture and white-box modeling.
 
KingsXJJ said:
Maybe you are right. But based on what I hear with the JP amp, it sounds like what you would get if you took a ToneX capture and blended it with a White-box model. It sounds exactly how I would imagine them to sound together. It plays that way for me too. It’s very unique in that regard when compared against the other non-HQ amps. They call it their “next-gen” modeling. At any rate, even if I’m wrong about Hotone, I like the idea of blending and balancing a capture and white-box together.
Click to expand...
I don't find that to be the case at all. The Soldano SLO is one of the few models that has both the HQ and "normal" version of it and they don't sound that different, the HQ sounds a bit better.

I've tried running the JP2C preamp model into the poweramp of my Mesa Mark V 90 and it did a pretty great job even compared to the Mark's ch3 IIC/MKIV modes.
 
laxu said:
I don't find that to be the case at all. The Soldano SLO is one of the few models that has both the HQ and "normal" version of it and they don't sound that different, the HQ sounds a bit better.

I've tried running the JP2C preamp model into the poweramp of my Mesa Mark V 90 and it did a pretty great job even compared to the Mark's ch3 IIC/MKIV modes.
Click to expand...
I specifically did not mention the Soldano because it’s not that way. Just the JP.
 
laxu said:
I don't find that to be the case at all. The Soldano SLO is one of the few models that has both the HQ and "normal" version of it and they don't sound that different, the HQ sounds a bit better.

I've tried running the JP2C preamp model into the poweramp of my Mesa Mark V 90 and it did a pretty great job even compared to the Mark's ch3 IIC/MKIV modes.
Click to expand...
I haven’t had a much luck as I’d hoped splitting the preamps or power amps out on mine. I haven’t done what you mentioned though. But I have tried preamps into my combo and dirt pedals in to their power amps. Wasn’t as great as I’d hoped. Maybe I should revisit it. Maybe I missed something and was doing it wrong.
 
The simple way is to first do component circuit modeling (white box)....and then apply ML/DL (black box) to clean up any residual errors.

In fact, I was almost 100% that this was what L6 was going to do with Stadium. But they just choose to deploy improved white box - which is not a bad thing at all given how awesomely good white box is now.

Who knows, they may do this down the road! This is not a very hard thing to do - it's almost the same as what NDSP is doing - just needs lots of samples.

The benefit of employing white box to undergrid the whole thing is the ML part converges faster - and is physics based at the core.
 
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