Microphone for acoustics live?

metropolis_4

metropolis_4

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Not sure what sub forum this belongs in.

I’m thinking about experimenting with using a microphone for all my acoustic instruments live instead of plugging them in. Instruments are steel string acoustic, nylon string acoustic, mandolin, banjo, occasionally dobro.

I’d want a mic I could swing over quickly and then move back out of the way when I’m playing electric, so not something that is picky about placement.

Doesn’t have to be the most amazing sounding mic in the world, just a solid workhorse for a working musician.

What would be a good option?
 
Don’t go there.
I have some acoustic acts that I look after and they all periodically try this and it works great on a small theatre stage with nobody moving. Oh and if you have amazing gear and a fantastic sound man. Anything less and it quickly becomes a car crash.
 
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"not something that is picky about placement" implies a broad pickup pattern, which will be prone to feed back.
And close micing is "picky about placement", kinda no matter what: levels, proximity effect, movement of the instrument, all this will yield consistently inconsistent results.
I'd probably go with a 57 if I had to, but I'd prefer not to.
And I don't even like 57s to begin with.
 
Doing justice to quality acoustics plugged in is always a problem. I appreciate that even the best on board systems either reduce the sound to that of a mid tier Taylor or worse interfere with the acoustic sound.
 
woody said:
"not something that is picky about placement" implies a broad pickup pattern, which will be prone to feed back.
And close micing is "picky about placement", kinda no matter what: levels, proximity effect, movement of the instrument, all this will yield consistently inconsistent results.
I'd probably go with a 57 if I had to, but I'd prefer not to.
And I don't even like 57s to begin with.
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Only the beginning of why you should not do it.
 
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On the subject of good acoustic tone. The newest idea is just feed a piezo signal in to a pre amp and an IR of a great sounding acoustic. Fender Acoustasonics do this and it’s why you see them live everywhere. The pickup system ideas in these is probably the future.
Let’s be honest the Anthem and Fishman equivalent systems suck compared to a really good acoustic recorded with a microphone. But don’t try it for the reasons above.
 
Eagle said:
On the subject of good acoustic tone. The newest idea is just feed a piezo signal in to a pre amp and an IR of a great sounding acoustic. Fender Acoustasonics do this and it’s why you see them live everywhere. The pickup system ideas in these is probably the future.
Let’s be honest the Anthem and Fishman equivalent systems suck compared to a really good acoustic recorded with a microphone. But don’t try it for the reasons above.
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I've been interested in these kinda IR-based solutions since the Tone Dexter came out.
There's been some DIY solutions on the web, but they always seemed pretty homebrewn.
I have an Anthem in my acoustic stage guitars, which does not seem to be a great starting point for IR convolution, though.
Do you know any recent information worth reading on this?
 
ive done this a coupla times, and what id do always made everyone edgy, but id throw an x/y condensor array at about 3 feet to catch the band in an arc. at the time i had a pair of rode nt1s, and used them- but im sure any cardioid ldcs would work fine. then id put a vocal mic above it for the band to step to or solo into. i had access to an oktava 319 also, and that usually ended up there.

thing is- i ran sound. id turn up with a 30 band eq and ring it out and stand by it. it wasnt super fussy most times, but it DID change as the room filled up- and i didnt have a full array of gear. im pretty sure theres modern conveniences thatd make it all easier, but it was a pretty trad jazz type outfit and their expectation of monitoring and mixing werent based on modern ideas of stage comfort. and youre not gonna modify install sound house eqs without somebody melting down- so dont do this expecting to re-ring stuff out at established clubs unless you put a rack in front of their gear and know how to run it.

ive used akg 451s or c1000s in the context you're likely describing with no real issues.
 
woody said:
I've been interested in these kinda IR-based solutions since the Tone Dexter came out.
There's been some DIY solutions on the web, but they always seemed pretty homebrewn.
I have an Anthem in my acoustic stage guitars, which does not seem to be a great starting point for IR convolution, though.
Do you know any recent information worth reading on this?
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I’m sorry I don’t. There is not a lot of information out there atm . I come across what I know by interacting with manufacturers artists and sound guys.
 
Eagle said:
I’m sorry I don’t. There is not a lot of information out there atm . I come across what I know by interacting with manufacturers artists and sound guys.
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Thanks!
There's been this thread for quite some time:
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665430,
but as the guy making IRs kinda is, like, I don't know what I'm doing either, this is not encouraging enough to rip the Anthem out of a nice guitar and try this out.
There'll be future developments, I'm sure.
 
I think in my scenario it could work. This would be in a pit orchestra, I’ll be sitting in one place, there are excellent sound techs, and there are already mics covering brass, reeds, strings, percussion, drums, and wood winds so it wouldn’t be the only thing a mic is being used for.

I’ve seen it done in several Broadway and touring pits as well.
 
I really like the sound of a small diagram condenser microphone for acoustic guitar. I use the Shure SM81, but have never tried it for live use.

For live I have a guitar fitted with the James May Ultraronic pickup that I feed into the Fractal FM9 where I apply EQ, compression, reverb, and a tone match IR that I made with that exact guitar and the SM81 microphone. I think it sounds very good.
 
metropolis_4 said:
I think in my scenario it could work. This would be in a pit orchestra, I’ll be sitting in one place, there are excellent sound techs, and there are already mics covering brass, reeds, strings, percussion, drums, and wood winds so it wouldn’t be the only thing a mic is being used for.

I’ve seen it done in several Broadway and touring pits as well.
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This should work.
I'd talk to the sound techs about this, and I'm sure they have an informed opinion about what works for them.
And usually they'll provide a mic.
 
woody said:
I've been interested in these kinda IR-based solutions since the Tone Dexter came out.
There's been some DIY solutions on the web, but they always seemed pretty homebrewn.
I have an Anthem in my acoustic stage guitars, which does not seem to be a great starting point for IR convolution, though.
Do you know any recent information worth reading on this?
Click to expand...
I’m not sure if this is helpful, but for playing acoustic live, I’ve had good luck with the HX Stomp and PodGo. I tried out a bunch of IRs and went with my ears as opposed to what should have made sense. After getting close to what I wanted I used the best compressors, eq, reverb etc, and since there’s not an amp model DSP is not an issue.
This is a very personal taste thing to me, but also I found their tape simulator (“retro reel”) to have a nice warming effect.
 
My experience with acoustic guitar in live gigs is the typical hard way of learning process.

I tried all IR things. When discovered it (back in 2018), it was sooo great at home. I just thought it was the absolute solution. Not only for getting a "mic" tone for live use, but also for recording at home without external noises or complicated mic installations.

But then I went to the first gig with it (at that time, I had a Logidy EPSi IR loader, which was great, very low latency and very long IRs)... and there were no way of making it sound good. It was hollow, distant, icepeaky... horrible. The tech guy was like "mate, turn that off!!".

Then I started to load the IRs in the Amplifire12 I ordered as my main rig. Same result.

People said it could be a good idea to "blend just a little IR". Got a Helix, which allowed me to blend IRs, unlike the AA12. Loaded my IRs and blended them to avoid the full IR hollowish hell. The result was bad, or meh at best.

I also tried making my own IRs (Cuki has a fantastic open source tool for that). Again, at home it was awesome. But live wasn´t making it for me. At least, not in a 6-piece band.

Took my experiences to fora (yeah, fora... whats up?), and more or less everyone was having a similar journey. They all agree that you need to blend just a little of IR to be good live. ToneDexter, Baggs VoicePrint, Nux OptimaAir and the likes... allow to create your own guitar Irs too. But out there I see people coming back to reality and more or less being aware that they´re not miraculous either.

And, for me, the end of the journey is coming back to a preamp/DI. Yeah, that piezo quack can get tamed a little with EQ and compression, and at the end, that kind of sound is the one We are used to hear in concerts. Once you realize it´s not that bad, you end up enjoying it. It´s far less hassle, far easier to use, and it can sound perfectly fine.

Furthermore, and just as an example: a couple weeks ago, I had the enormous fortune to be in a very small venue, watching a monster flamenco guitarist (a big name in the style, which tours all over the world). His tech guy is a friend of mine who told me he installed the night before a Fishman Prefyx in the guitar he used in this gig. It seems they always have problems with mics in big venues. You know, feedback and whatnot. For this gig, he still used the DPA 4099 mic, with piezo blended just a bit. But he was so pleased that he was eager to try it in big stages with more piezo blend.
 
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