I Guess I've Just Become Too Picky

[Axe]

I'm in the process of sending my 2nd guitar in two weeks back.. Last week I sent back an Ibby AZ2402 that just didn't do it for a couple reasons, with the primary reason being it was just kind of a dead guitar no matter what I tried. After 50+ yrs I believe I do know how to set up and rectify almost any problem on a new instrument.
This week's casualty is a Gibson Les Paul Modern. Long story short,, numerous issues mostly cosmetic (buckle rash, scratch in the top, significant guitar stand mark on the back of the neck) that added up to leading me to believe it was a repack. I could have repaired each with the top scratch being a bit of a question but why should I on a $3k guitar? With Lesters, I look at weight. I have a weight alley I look for and then I look at tops..

Every instrument I entertain the thought of acquiring I always try to find one locally to lay hands on. If I can't, well, I'm at the mercy of interweb sales..
At present I own 28 instruments MOL.

All are keepers imo.

But, being a guitarist, kinda sorta, I do have the disease... Don't we all? I'm always in search of my ever elusive guitar soulmate. I am at a point in life, and I explain this clearly to every salesman I talk to. If it doesn't absolutely blow me away, it's coming back.. I always do a complete setup, fretboard treatment, fret polishing and a fresh set of strings. I always want to keep the new one..

Am I too picky?
Hopefully the third time will be a charm

Another on the bucket list inbound

 

[norminal]

Am I too picky?

It’s your money. You have a right to be picky about what you spend it on.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Ibby AZ2402

Just plain curious, what made it a dead guitar? I have one and it isn't without its flaws, namely a strange pinging sound from open strings that comes and goes and a questionable pickup route.

Good luck on your conquest!

How's the drumming coming along?

 

[TSJMajesty]

I don't think so. But with costs these days, $3000 just isn't what it used to be. I feel it's perhaps at the high end of the "mass produced with cheap labor" segment.

I mean, I'm looking in the 4-6K range of EBMM, hoping to get another Majesty, and even at that price point, as I look very closely at the pictures of their new models, I see strings that are not perfectly centered on the neck. And I'm like, WTF Music Man? They go on and on about all this attention to detail, yet I can find misaligned strings on probably 1/3 of the ones I look at!

Too picky...? Every now and again, on the 20th anniversary Majesty I have, my finger will slip off the high e string, because the strings are a bit closer to that side. And I went for how the top looked when I picked that guitar, and didn't look close enough at the pictures. I didn't play it very much when it was new, so I didn't even notice it for a while.

The fix? Send it back to EBMM, and they'll decide if it's outside of spec. At which point they'd swap parts onto a new bodyneck. Which means I'd have no way of seeing how well the flame "pops", or how well the 2 woods that make up the top take stain. Which is another gripe I see on these models (the ones with the shield)- the center section of wood ends up markedly darker than the surrounding 'wings' on many examples.

I love the guitar (I have 2 and want another), but even at the price they go for, they're far from having the QC I feel they should have at that price point.



Although, maybe I'm looking at it all wrong. Money doesn't necessarily equal quality, as can be seen in many other brands. Maybe it's just a USA-built thing, with labor most likely being the most difficult part to control, cost-wise and quality-of-workmanship wise.

But hell yeah, send it back if you're not blown away. We all should.

My most recent is a one-off JP15 that is perfect in every way, so they can do it. (Even if that's not a valid way of looking at it, since that guitar is a bolt-on and the Majesties are neck-through. But still.)

I work with wood, so I know what's possible when it comes to joinery. Especially when you're repeating the process over and over. It actually gets easier to achieve consistent results, than if you were only building a few. You develop stringent methods along the way that you follow exactly the same way every time. And you don't turn out a single finished product until you've reached that point in the process.

If you're getting any inconsistencies, then you figure out a different method to build that part of the product! Which should happen at any price point, imo.

 

[Axe]

Just plain curious, what made it a dead guitar? I have one and it isn't without its flaws, namely a strange pinging sound from open strings that comes and goes and a questionable pickup route.

Good luck on your conquest!

How's the drumming coming along?

I was A/B/C'ing it against my two ST300Cs depicted below and they both blew the AZ2402 away. The 2402 did not ring out or sustain nearly as well as the other two despite having brand new strings. What was really odd was I could not tap above the 12th fret on the B or E strings no matter how I adjusted the bridge and pickups. I've never encountered that before. Single notes died off quickly in that area as well.

Re: drumming. I'm chipping away at it. I try to invest at least 30 minutes a day at it. I gave my Nitro Max kit I started on to my grandson and upgraded to a Strike Pro SE kit. Working on double kicks right now. I just started and really suck at it . Thanks for asking

 

[Axe]

I don't think so. But with costs these days, $3000 just isn't what it used to be. I feel it's perhaps at the high end of the "mass produced with cheap labor" segment.

I still have trouble justifying paying $3k on an instrument and the latest inbound is considerably more

I mean, I'm looking in the 4-6K range of EBMM, hoping to get another Majesty, and even at that price point, as I look very closely at the pictures of their new models, I see strings that are not perfectly centered on the neck. And I'm like, WTF Music Man? They go on and on about all this attention to detail, yet I can find misaligned strings on probably 1/3 of the ones I look at!

Too picky...? Every now and again, on the 20th anniversary Majesty I have, my finger will slip off the high e string, because the strings are a bit closer to that side. And I went for how the top looked when I picked that guitar, and didn't look close enough at the pictures. I didn't play it very much when it was new, so I didn't even notice it for a while.

I had a Lifeson Epi briefly that I swear had the wrong nut on it. The high E constantly fell off the fretboard and I could feel the nut protruding out on both sides of the neck. Yeah, I returned it too

I work with wood, so I know what's possible when it comes to joinery. Especially when you're repeating the process over and over. It actually gets easier to achieve consistent results, than if you were only building a few. You develop stringent methods along the way that you follow exactly the same way every time. And you don't turn out a single finished product until you've reached that point in the process.

If you're getting any inconsistencies, then you figure out a different method to build that part of the product! Which should happen at any price point, imo.

I too spent most of my life working with wood. Building houses, building cabinetry, high end trim outs to building guitars so I get where you're coming from. I'm tempted to try one of Ola's Solars except I'm old and like inlays. Well 3 of his Tee shirts I received were mis-sized as well..

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

I was A/B/C'ing it against my two ST300Cs depicted below and they both blew the AZ2402 away. The 2402 did not ring out or sustain nearly as well as the other two despite having brand new strings. What was really odd was I could not tap above the 12th fret on the B or E strings no matter how I adjusted the bridge and pickups. I've never encountered that before. Single notes died off quickly in that area as well.

Re: drumming. I'm chipping away at it. I try to invest at least 30 minutes a day at it. I gave my Nitro Max kit I started on to my grandson and upgraded to a Strike Pro SE kit. Working on double kicks right now. I just started and really suck at it . Thanks for asking

I hate to be that guy ..... comparison between an older Carvin and newer factory made ibby ....is no comparison.

Carvins are amazingly built and sound amazing...always....from my experience.....using them as a standard is unfair.....many will lose against them. I speak from experience. Especially the neck through models.

If I compared every guitar I tried to my Carvin, id never own another guitar.... except for a Carvin.

They are just amazing and wonderful.... positive rant over.


I know some don't like the Keisel branded ones ...I have no experience with those. Not sure I would be any different than Jeff, if I was in the guitar building business... considering the customer pool.

 

[Warmart]

I wouldn't feel bad at all. If you have valid reasons to return - you'd be crazy not to!

 

[TSJMajesty]

I still have trouble justifying paying $3k on an instrument and the latest inbound is considerably more

Yeah, just think..., around the time many of us were born, that 3 grand would buy a new car!

 

[LeftyLoungeLizard]

If most were as picky as the OP with everything we pay $$$ for, maybe just maybe prices would come down.

But continue to accept their bullshit (subpar quality, rapey pricing, etc) and they'll just keep on bending everybody over; simply speaking.

Supply and demand, people... "what the market will bear".

 

[LeftyLoungeLizard]

I am at a point in life, and I explain this clearly to every salesman I talk to. If it doesn't absolutely blow me away, it's coming back.. I always do a complete setup, fretboard treatment, fret polishing and a fresh set of strings. I always want to keep the new one..

Am I too picky?
Hopefully the third time will be a charm

If only every consumer was as picky and fastidious as you. Paying a lot of money for a product that is of subpar quality is a big "NO." - you should always get your $$$'s worth.

 

[TSJMajesty]

If most were as picky as the OP with everything we pay $$$ for, maybe just maybe prices would come down.

But continue to accept their bullshit (subpar quality, rapey pricing, etc) and they'll just keep on bending everybody over; simply speaking.

Supply and demand, people... "what the market will bear".

You know, I was thinking that very same thing, but as I said in another thread, how my voices can have conversations with each other...

I then thought, if everybody did that, it may force them to deal with it in a way that adds time to the builds, resulting in price increases.

So who knows?

But I agree-- WE have the power! Don't accept that shit!



PRS never* puts out "seconds." If they have a guitar that gets eff'd up, even at the end, they run it through a bandsaw and throw it away.

* The only exception I ever saw was a guitar they had donated to be raffled off for a charity, which I acquired as the 2nd owner. It was stamped with a "B" on the back, because the very last thing, screwing the PU rings into the body, caused a very tiny split in the wood.

But I still think, had it not gone to that charity event, it wouldn't have been sold to the public. And the guitar was fine otherwise. Heck, if you didn't know what to look for, you'd have been hard-pressed to even find it.

This is the guitar:

See? You can't even tell!

 

[TSJMajesty]

Oh and get this shit--

There's a "B stock" Majesty on Reverb (that's still listed too expensive), so I clicked on it to see why.

They describe it as having a crack at the nut, and some light scratches. They say the scratches don't photograph well enough to see, but even so, they only posted 1 STOCK FACTORY PICTURE!!

Show the damn crack in pic FFS!! Unbelievable!

 

[LeftyLoungeLizard]

Then there's the problem with online companies like Amazon, Musician's Fiend & Guitar Center (same parent company) etc... who sell musical equipment, and they get returns with defects from unhappy customers, but just box them up again without fixing the problem and sell them as new.

 

[laxu]

I hate to be that guy ..... comparison between an older Carvin and newer factory made ibby ....is no comparison.

Carvins are amazingly built and sound amazing...always....from my experience.....using them as a standard is unfair.....many will lose against them. I speak from experience. Especially the neck through models.

If I compared every guitar I tried to my Carvin, id never own another guitar.... except for a Carvin.

They are just amazing and wonderful.... positive rant over.


I know some don't like the Keisel branded ones ...I have no experience with those. Not sure I would be any different than Jeff, if I was in the guitar building business... considering the customer pool.

Carvin C66

Kiesel AM7

Heatley Tradition

What? I like figured tops!

Both my 2010 Carvin C66 and 2015 Kiesel Aries AM7 are very well made guitars where it counts. Both have small cosmetic issues. I bought the Kiesel new and got an acceptable refund for the cosmetic problems considering I'm not sending the guitar back from halfway across the world. I asked for beer money, got a lot more.

The closest thing to a perfectly made guitar I own is my Heatley Tradition. Those cost something like $6000+ new, and that was years ago. I bought mine used so great savings since the maker is not well known.

I can live with cosmetic issues if the rest of the guitar plays like a champ and sounds great. Fixable issues are also fine. Price of course matters, the more expensive the guitar the less issues I'll accept.

At this point I'd prefer a guitar to be at least 80-90% right before I'll invest the time to work on it to get it to my liking. No guitar is 100% there without at least setting it up to your preference.

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

Carvin C66
View attachment 29223

Kiesel AM7
View attachment 29222

Heatley Tradition
View attachment 29224

What? I like figured tops!

Both my 2010 Carvin C66 and 2015 Kiesel Aries AM7 are very well made guitars where it counts. Both have small cosmetic issues. I bought the Kiesel new and got an acceptable refund for the cosmetic problems considering I'm not sending the guitar back from halfway across the world. I asked for beer money, got a lot more.

The closest thing to a perfectly made guitar I own is my Heatley Tradition. Those cost something like $6000+ new, and that was years ago. I bought mine used so great savings since the maker is not well known.

I can live with cosmetic issues if the rest of the guitar plays like a champ and sounds great. Fixable issues are also fine. Price of course matters, the more expensive the guitar the less issues I'll accept.

At this point I'd prefer a guitar to be at least 80-90% right before I'll invest the time to work on it to get it to my liking. No guitar is 100% there without at least setting it up to your preference.

Those are f@#king gorgeous! You sir, have excellent taste.

 

[TSJMajesty]

No guitar is 100% there without at least setting it up to your preference.

I don't know. Not my experience. As I mentioned above, my JP15 is perfect. Not a flaw, strings are dead-center, action is perfect..., even the intonation was dead-on. I even checked every note for sustain.

I don't know how rare that is, but not 'no guitar.'

I can hit 95-98% on things I build in my job. The only reason I can't say 100% is because most everything I do is one-off. But I know to a certainty, that if I were building multiples of items, it's entirely possible. It's all in your methods. And your mindset.

And when you use efficient methods/systems, contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take an inordinate amount of time either. Simple economy-of-scale allows one to turn out higher quality, in less time, on a per-item basis.

If you have 1 speaker cabinet to build, vs. 10, because you don't build them one at a time, you can dial in each individual step in the process to a higher degree of accuracy (which actually makes assembly go faster as well.) Those 10 may only take 5x's as long as the 1 to build. You invest some of that time savings into methods that result in much greater accuracy.

Heck, the kitchen cabinets I recently installed didn't have a single flaw on them.

 

[Axe]

Oh boy, don't get my down the Carvin rabbit hole
3 that I wish I'd never sold but I lost my 20 yr old baby girl and needed funeral $$
And the Blue CS4C that I still own

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

Oh boy, don't get my down the Carvin rabbit hole
3 that I wish I'd never sold but I lost my 20 yr old baby girl and needed funeral $$
And the Blue CS4C that I still own

Sorry to hear that bud....that sucks.

My heart breaks for you.

That blue one is a beautiful axe.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

There was a Carvin showroom/store out here in Sacramento (30-40 min drive from where my parents lived, 7-10 minute drive from my college campus). I would come over and drool over their inventory.