HELP me understand how NAM works…

[Nembrini]

Hi,

I have many questions about NAM technology I use on my MacBook (after fighting to understand why Apple didn’t allow to install it because not verified!! Damn Apple!)

So I can understand what’s going on there,
Q1 : is NAM a decentralized project ?
As far as I can understand :

Actor 1 -[FREE] Steve NAM GitHub https://www.neuralampmodeler.com/
Neural Amp Modeler is NAM is a an open source project (a ai researcher named Steve who made it for his own use but decided to share with people his great find)
Actor 1 - to play the captures .nam you need the plugin but it’s very cpu demanding compared to others (ToneX)

Actor 2 - [FREE] https://www.tone3000.com/
to MAKE your own capture you have to use a third party website, without any paying fees (?)
Actor 2 - to download the captures you have to go to the same website and download them

Actor 3 - [commercial product] https://www.dimehead.de/
to use .nam in live situation on a pedal only the NAM PLAYER from Dime Head brand is truly doing the job right now (?)

Actor 4 - https://www.darkglass.com/creation/anagram/
Anagram is offering a .nam player inside his new multifx pedal but : it’s made for bassist and NAM users doubt it can really perform as well as the Dime Head player because some other brands tried to and kind of failed at it because of the lack of cpu and so used converted .nam and that’s so people are waiting for Leo Gibson to make the testing before purchasing

Q2 : NULL TEST is used to make sure the difference between the real amp and all those captures are sounding the same. It’s her scientific test, am I right? Is blind testing Ear testing outdated?

And the difference is very low between ToneX and NAM, NAM being like 2% better at null test so most guitar player would struggle to make any diffence in capture quality (am I right here?)


Q3 : So to understand if I buy the ANAGRAM I have to trust at least 3 different actors on the future of my device being able to run .nam captures?

Q4 : Also NAM is popular because of two things ? :
- it’s free (and open)
- it’s the best (by a small margin with trade of being a lot more cpu demanding)

BUT I have to spend at least 600€ to run it. So ToneX one or NanoCortex seems more polished and from the most trustworthy brands for less money overall (Neural DSP, IK Multimedia)

I don’t want to be unpleasant but how Steve the father of NAM can be involved in a professional manner if he doesn’t make any money of the support of NAM project, despite others actors are dependent of his future work?
Actor 3 will always depend on actor 2 (earning no money at what I understand?) who will always depend of actor 1 who earn zero money?

Am I missing something?
But if that’s not the case, we are living in post capitalism world for sure! (Great news imo, like music industry today, we pay for live playing mostly haha)

The goal is not to convince anybody to use ToneX or NanoCortex or to give a personal opinion on something I don’t really use everyday, but try to learn because it’s becoming really good as technology

I came here because I’m an Helix Native user and Kemper user and saw a video from Tone Junkie TV who talked about NAM and the possibility of the tech being adopted by Line6 in next gen Helix product. I personally think that would be a great idea because even if actor 1 and 2 drop out, a strong actor 3 could replace them to make the product line durable like Helix is right now.

Also for some reason I can’t join the Facebook NAM group from Actor 1 or actor 2 but that’s because I’m not an active Facebook user (the same for other Facebook pages, not specific to this group in my case) that’s why I may not have some clarification you may have ! But couldn’t find them on this forum anyway. I use YouTube a lot as my work allow me to listen to podcast, everything I know comes from Leo Gibson and Tone Junkie

Thanks!

 

[laxu]

Q3 : So to understand if I buy the ANAGRAM I have to trust at least 3 different actors on the future of my device being able to run .nam captures?

No, because whatever NAM, the tool to create captures, does in the future doesn't matter. You can always use an older version since it's open source software.

No, to make captures you don't need to use Tonezone3000. It just makes it easy for you. You can create captures locally and upload them there or share them on your own website, off Google Drive or whatever.

NAM files are nothing more than JSON-format metadata and a very long list of weights that define how the model should behave for that capture.

BUT I have to spend at least 600€ to run it. So ToneX one or NanoCortex seems more polished and from the most trustworthy brands for less money overall (Neural DSP, IK Multimedia)

You mean the trustworthy brands like IK, that can't design a good user interface if their life depended on it, or Neural DSP who has the history of not even delivering the features they promised would be "easy" and "soon"?

 

[Nembrini]

No, because whatever NAM, the tool to create captures, does in the future doesn't matter. You can always use an older version since it's open source software.

No, to make captures you don't need to use Tonezone3000. It just makes it easy for you. You can create captures locally and upload them there or share them on your own website, off Google Drive or whatever.

NAM files are nothing more than JSON-format metadata and a very long list of weights that define how the model should behave for that capture.


You mean the trustworthy brands like IK, that can't design a good user interface if their life depended on it, or Neural DSP who has the history of not even delivering the features they promised would be "easy" and "soon"?

Thanks for the answer, but as far as I understand everything digital and used on computer needs constant updates to keep up with the hardware isn’t it? So if actor 1 stop feeding the open source code it could become obsolete ?
You have strong opinion about IKM and Neural DSP, but they have a a lot of users and people seems to trust those companies. I personally have the Brian May plugin and never had any issues with it and it’s been always updated for newer os versions. That’s reinsuring for me

 

[laxu]

Thanks for the answer, but as far as I understand everything digital and used on computer needs constant updates to keep up with the hardware isn’t it? So if actor 1 stop feeding the open source code it could become obsolete ?

No it doesn't. The developers of Anagram or Dime head would likely have their own fork of the NAM repository.

A fork is taking the current open source code master repository from Steven Atkinson, and making your own copy of it. You can then evolve the code in any way you want. Even if Steve updates the master NAM repo, as long as you don't integrate any of his changes into your forked repo, then your fork will remain unchanged.

Similarly whatever firmware runs on a hardware device will remain so.

Let's say we have a scenario where Steve says "fuck this shit" and deletes his NAM repo. There would still be forks of it, and your hardware would run NAM files just as it has always done.

You have strong opinion about IKM and Neural DSP, but they have a a lot of users and people seems to trust those companies. I personally have the Brian May plugin and never had any issues with it and it’s been always updated for newer os versions. That’s reinsuring for me

IK's most popular products are the Tonex and Tonex One. Tonex One in particular is very cheap for what it offers, so it's no wonder it's popular.

Neural DSP has burned through a lot of goodwill regarding the Quad Cortex development over the years. But one thing they are good at is marketing. People see their products on Instagram/Tiktok etc, in the hands of various players etc so it's also no wonder they are popular.

These products are not popular because the companies are so good and trustworthy.

 

[Mikael Dez]

NAM aside, Apple making it a little more difficult to install software downloaded from random sites is a feature, not a bug. Just right click your installation and run it and Apple will provide the dialog asking “are you sure” basically and then it’ll install. This is to protect the boomers from installing nefarious shit.

 

[Nembrini]

Ok so I now understand better. Thanks
- nam project is kind of autonomous from original will of Steve
- so actors n+1 will ALWAYS be able to continue the project and so build their own support
But that also imply keeping a new fork of nam is something actors will be able to do without any major difficulties (Do you think Tone3000 owner and Dime Head or Darkglass brand could have the level to do it?)
Let’s put other brands aside by the way :)

Also do you think Tone Junkie is right when he thinks next Helix could have nam inside?
Are users asking asking for it?
I personally would like it. I have tried ToneX and it’s convincing. But I’m very tempted by nanocortex now they have a great update.

 

[laxu]

NAM aside, Apple making it a little more difficult to install software downloaded from random sites is a feature, not a bug. Just right click your installation and run it and Apple will provide the dialog asking “are you sure” basically and then it’ll install. This is to protect the boomers from installing nefarious shit.

"System Settings -> Privacy & Security -> Allow applications from -> App Store & Known Developers" is a helplful setting to enable.

For unknown developers you can go to the same menu and press "Open anyway" button. Unknown dev does not mean it's necessarily shady, just that they are not part of the Apple developer program which costs money.

 

[laxu]

Ok so I now understand better. Thanks
- nam project is kind of autonomous from original will of Steve
- so actors n+1 will ALWAYS be able to continue the project and so build their own support
But that also imply keeping a new fork of nam is something actors will be able to do without any major difficulties (Do you think Tone3000 owner and Dime Head or Darkglass brand could have the level to do it?)
Let’s put other brands aside by the way :)

There is nothing to "keeping a new fork of NAM". You literally press "fork the repo" on Github and then you have your own fork under your logged in user.

Keeping your fork up to date with the master repo (if you want e.g bug fixes or improvements from that) requires you to know how to use Git version control, but literally any software developer knows how to do that.

Being able to develop a product that runs NAM implies you know how to work with the code.

Also do you think Tone Junkie is right when he thinks next Helix could have nam inside?
Are users asking asking for it?
I personally would like it. I have tried ToneX and it’s convincing. But I’m very tempted by nanocortex now they have a great update.

Tone Junkie is a chump. He'll ramble about a lot of crap.

Helix likely does not have the hardware to run captures, and Line6 has no interest in adding them either.

 

[Nembrini]

NAM aside, Apple making it a little more difficult to install software downloaded from random sites is a feature, not a bug. Just right click your installation and run it and Apple will provide the dialog asking “are you sure” basically and then it’ll install. This is to protect the boomers from installing nefarious shit.

I had to go in my settings of my Mac and allow last installment request… right click trick didn’t work

 

[Nembrini]

There is nothing to "keeping a new fork of NAM". You literally press "fork the repo" on Github and then you have your own fork under your logged in user.

Keeping your fork up to date with the master repo (if you want e.g bug fixes or improvements from that) requires you to know how to use Git version control, but literally any software developer knows how to do that.

Being able to develop a product that runs NAM implies you know how to work with the code.



Tone Junkie is a chump. He'll ramble about a lot of crap.

Helix likely does not have the hardware to run captures, and Line6 has no interest in adding them either.

Yes Helix is a great unit, I love their amps and effects. The dream of having both modeling and profiling in one unit is only living in the expensive Quad Cortex right now but as far as I read it’s doing both less good than competitors (neural captures less accurate than ToneX and their models less responsive than Helix)

 

[Mikael Dez]

"System Settings -> Privacy & Security -> Allow applications from -> App Store & Known Developers" is a helplful setting to enable.

For unknown developers you can go to the same menu and press "Open anyway" button. Unknown dev does not mean it's necessarily shady, just that they are not part of the Apple developer program which costs money.

Oh I know, I was an Apple admin for 5 years - I just can’t help but pipe up and defend them when people curse them haha

 

[laxu]

Oh I know, I was an Apple admin for 5 years - I just can’t help but pipe up and defend them when people curse them haha

Yeah I was just adding more info to your post.

You could write a book about the bullshit Apple does on MacOS/iOS, just like you can on Windows. It's amazing how Apple has gone from the "it just works" company to "this shit just annoys the hell out of me and Apple refuses to fix it" over the years.

Their laptops are still great hardware.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

BUT I have to spend at least 600€ to run it. So ToneX one or NanoCortex seems more polished and from the most trustworthy brands for less money overall (Neural DSP, IK Multimedia)

Those are good options, Kemper also btw.
NAM does better on the “meter” in test, sure,…but personally I don’t hear or feel the difference between real/capture when I do my own profiles (QC and Kemper)..so they are all good enough in the “capture department”. NAM has never been an option so far cause the hardware of other brands simply are a better match.
NDSP gets a lot of grease for overprommising at their release, and for their marketing that is a bit unussual.
Personally I don’t assume bad intentions in these regards, and judge the product on it’s merits..by that personal metric..I would buy a QC again.

I came here because I’m an Helix Native user and Kemper user and saw a video from Tone Junkie TV who talked about NAM and the possibility of the tech being adopted by Line6 in next gen Helix product. I personally think that would be a great idea because even if actor 1 and 2 drop out, a strong actor 3 could replace them to make the product line durable like Helix is right now.

That’s offcourse speculation…but I also expect every brand to include capture tech at some point, and for the ones not having it atm…using NAM makes total sense to me. That said, speculative to a degree that it’s not worth to include in your considerations.

If Kemper matches what you need, why not stick to that? Imo it’s capture tech/efx are no reasons to switch.
I still use one for monitoring in my studio / practice, but added a Tonex license for use in my DAW. Purely for practical reasons. Record the DI from Kemper, Tonex at playback in DAW, so I don’t have to set sound/efx in stone while tracking.

 

[Nembrini]

Those are good options, Kemper also btw.
NAM does better on the “meter” in test, sure,…but personally I don’t hear or feel the difference between real/capture when I do my own profiles (QC and Kemper)..so they are all good enough in the “capture department”. NAM has never been an option so far cause the hardware of other brands simply are a better match.
NDSP gets a lot of grease for overprommising at their release, and for their marketing that is a bit unussual.
Personally I don’t assume bad intentions in these regards, and judge the product on it’s merits..by that personal metric..I would buy a QC again.


That’s offcourse speculation…but I also expect every brand to include capture tech at some point, and for the ones not having it atm…using NAM makes total sense to me. That said, speculative to a degree that it’s not worth to include in your considerations.

If Kemper matches what you need, why not stick to that? Imo it’s capture tech/efx are no reasons to switch.
I still use one for monitoring in my studio / practice, but added a Tonex license for use in my DAW. Purely for practical reasons. Record the DI from Kemper, Tonex at playback in DAW, so I don’t have to set sound/efx in stone while tracking.

Kemper matches my needs for cleans and low gain stuff, but a lot less for high gain. I don’t have the same nice feel as the HX Panama apps for exemple. So I use both.
which one do your prefer between QC and Kemper at the moment?
Thanks

 

[Nembrini]

Leo’s testing!

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Kemper matches my needs for cleans and low gain stuff, but a lot less for high gain. I don’t have the same nice feel as the HX Panama apps for exemple. So I use both.
which one do your prefer between QC and Kemper at the moment?
Thanks

Ahh..I don’t do high gain at all…

Which one I prefer…

Amps are a toss up, time efx go to Kemper.
Extra points for Kempers output menu/global cab defeat and amp paramters.
Extra points for QC for its hybride scenes/stomp mode (kitchen sink presets), and its small size with a Sload of switches and IO.

UI..QC is obviously way better for the initial setup, but Kempers WYSIWYG/tactile knobs is hard to beat once you have your sounds ready.

QC is what I use live, size and scenes being the main driver for that.
Kemper in my studio / at home.

 

[Chocol8]

And the difference is very low between ToneX and NAM, NAM being like 2% better at null test so most guitar player would struggle to make any diffence in capture quality (am I right here?)

You MIGHT hear a difference with high gain stuff, but clean to medium gain, no one can reliably tell if a capture was NAM or Tonex and for the most part QC as well. That's why they need to use null tests to point out differences humans can't hear.

Kemper is easier to hear, especially if you use your guitar's volume controls or feed the capture low level and boosted signals.

The huge advantage for Tonex is the cheap hardware. There is no NAM equivalent to the Tonex One yet. If you are looking for a laptop solution, NAM is probably the way to go, if you want a small pedal to take with you, Tonex. If you want an all in one solution, I guess QC, but I would probably go Helix or Fractal and use modeling at this point.

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

Calling it:

"Hi Jean / Francois"

 

[Nembrini]

Calling it:

"Hi Jean / Francois"

Used chatGPT to get the joke «
So when someone quips “Hi Jean / François,” they’re simply invoking these two classic French names—Jean (“God is gracious”) and François (“Frenchman”) »
Hi dude! (I’m Italian by the way haha but not that far!)
Another guy with same name is doing great amp plugin, also Italian, and of course so much great Italian brands :

• IK Multimedia – Creators of AmpliTube, ToneX, and iRig. [ikmultimedia.com]
• Overloud – TH-U, one of the most advanced amp simulation suites. [overloud.com]
• Nembrini Audio – High-end amp plugins (Soldano, Marshall, ADA MP1). [nembriniaudio.com]
• Audiority – Vintage-inspired plugins (fuzz, delays, Binson Echorec emulations). [audiority.com]
• SIM1 – Hardware pedal that models other guitars (Strat, LP, acoustic).