New Monitors & Room Measurements

[Jarick]

Continuing on my monitor carousel, picked up a pair of Adam T5V. Really impressed but there’s a couple drawbacks too.

They are way smaller than my Yamaha HS8 speakers but surprisingly very deep. Bigger than the Genelecs of course. Sonically they are scooped in a pleasing way. There’s a punchy bass that’s surprising for the size and in my space it sounds a little better than the HS8 in the lows although likely not quite as flat in a better room. The mids are a bit scooped which is fine for music but not for flat audio needs. And the treble is forward but with the -2 setting it’s better.

Sonically the Adam’s are pleasing with the boosted bass and treble, the Genelecs are dull and boxy, and the Yamahas are flatter yet mid forward.

Also the Adam’s have a lot of tweeter hiss which is kind of annoying. The Yamahas have minimal hiss and the Genelecs have none.

Of course now I’m a bit curious about the A4V and A7V. Those might have a little flatter midrange, less hiss, and would also get some stuff out of my house. The 7 inch ones are still way smaller than the big Yamahas, not too much bigger than the 5s…

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I had Adam A7X’s and never got on with them, pretty much for all the reasons you described. I found them fun to listen to but was CONSTANTLY guessing myself because of the scooped midrange, exaggerated bass (basically 60hz port resonance from bad design) and lack of detail in the highs.

Some songs sounded incredible on them and others weird. It’s one of the only times I’ve swapped gear and realised the gear was to blame rather than my own ability. I’ve sworn myself off Adam since, once you hear those characteristics so could no longer unhear them.

It also took me several years to go back to ported speakers, ports can absolutely be done well sound transparent/fast if they’re designed well.

 

[Jarick]

I had Adam A7X’s and never got on with them, pretty much for all the reasons you described. I found them fun to listen to but was CONSTANTLY guessing myself because of the scooped midrange, exaggerated bass (basically 60hz port resonance from bad design) and lack of detail in the highs.

Some songs sounded incredible on them and others weird. It’s one of the only times I’ve swapped gear and realised the gear was to blame rather than my own ability. I’ve sworn myself off Adam since, once you hear those characteristics so could no longer unhear them.

It also took me several years to go back to ported speakers, ports can absolutely be done well sound transparent/fast if they’re designed well.

What are you using now?

 

[Jarick]

Okay I spent a good chunk of yesterday comparing speakers, tweaking settings, changing positions, etc. Then shot some measurements with my IK ARC room correction software.

The Yamaha HS8's seem to be too big for my room. It's a roller coaster of resonant peaks and valleys, and the low end is a mess in my room because I don't want to sit 3 feet off the wall and sink $3k into treatment. Correction helps in the midrange but only lessons the big peaks and valleys.

The Genelecs are flatter than the HS8's but there's some massive peaks in the low mids which makes them sound incredibly boxy. I think it's the small enclosure they are in. There's also no low end below my room node at 150 Hz. Correction helps smooth that out to an extent but they are just very unsatisfying to listen to.

The Adams overall are the flattest without treatment. There's a dip in the mids and the high frequencies are boosted a bit, but the resonant peaks and valleys aren't nearly as exaggerated as the HS8's and it doesn't have the boxy issues of the Genelecs. The low end drops off after 100 Hz which isn't bad for this room and listening position. Correction is subtle here, reduces the high frequencies a touch, bumps up the midrange a bit, and smooths out the lows.

I think a subwoofer would really clean up the low end if I wanted really smooth response below 100 Hz. There's a big difference between my left and right speakers in the low end because of my weird room, and crossing over around that 85 Hz mark to get the single sub signal would mostly fix that issue.

 

[Rock Chalk]

I can't really speak to the different frequency numbers, since I don't have any correction software, but what I can tell you is that when I added an Adam sub to my Adam A7X's, things went from "great" to "out of this world". My Axe-Fx has never sounded better......

 

[MirrorProfiles]

What are you using now?

I’m using Neumann KH420’s with a sub (and their MA1 correction), and also a pair of Amphion one15’s (or ns10’s) with a genelec sub.

Just finished a massive re-jig of the room (over 3 days straight of back breaking work). I’ll post some measurements soon, but aside from a bit of unavoidable floor bounce I’ve never had the room measure so well.

This was just an in-progress measurement, no sub or EQ (aiming for a gentle downward slope rather than a flat horizontal line).

Worth posting spectrogram graphs as well as frequency plots as they’ll show what’s happening with the decay times in the room. I’ll try and do some sweeps tomorrow if I have time.

 

[Frankencat]

I have had the original A7's for years now and I like them very much. I did take a little time to get used to but after that we are all good.

 

[jellodog]

I’m using Neumann KH420’s with a sub (and their MA1 correction), and also a pair of Amphion one15’s (or ns10’s) with a genelec sub.

Smart! - Not much risk of desk reflection, if you barely have a desk!

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Smart! - Not much risk of desk reflection, if you barely have a desk!

exactly! A lot of people are using way smaller ones but losing some faders to work with was non negotiable for me.

It’s also way better for being able to freely position speakers, subs and the computer screen. speaker and listening position are the most effective tools in getting a good response

 

[Jarick]

Went out to listen to check out monitors today and the A7V had just as much hiss as the T5V and T8V, plus it wasn't hooked up. Then went to check out a used pair of Neumann KH120's and something was off with one of them where the high end wasn't right.

Listened to some different lower cost monitors as they didn't have anything over $1k at the local stores. The Adam and JBL both have the same level of hiss, and I forgot about how my old JBL's hissed. Yamahas have about half the hiss volume and the build quality including switches on the back seems more robust. They do seem like a cut above the very cheap monitors, hence the price. Upper low end?

Now kicking around the idea of swapping the T5V's for Yamaha HS7's. They are basically halfway between the 5 and 8 in terms of size and sound. The little 5's are way too bright and lacking low end. The 8's have good detail for a big speaker but I think the 7's (really 6.5") may have a little more midrange detail and won't have as many problems with the bass. I know the build quality and hiss would be good too.

Or another option may be to order something different like Focals or take a chance on some of the A series Adams.

The other thing I think I should do is get some more bass traps for my room. I built some stuff DIY and it's okay, but some real bass traps in the corners may help. And having some diffusion may not be bad either.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Or another option may be to order something different like Focals or take a chance on some of the A series Adams.

The other thing I think I should do is get some more bass traps for my room. I built some stuff DIY and it's okay, but some real bass traps in the corners may help. And having some diffusion may not be bad either.

Just my opinion here so disregard as you please….

I’d swerve Adam or Focal in general. The Yamaha’s seem like a good fit for you, or alternatively I’d just look at Kali OR throw a bit more money towards KH120’s and a sub (then you’ll have room correction and the sub aligned without much effort). Yamaha sub could also be a shout.

I think investing in room treatment will go a lot further than trying different monitors and expecting the results to be that different. I’d first plug your room dimensions into amroc’s calculator to see which axial modes you’ll be dealing with, and then room eq wizard has a tool where you can put speaker and listening positions in and predict a response.

I’d also do some measurements of your room as is, and especially look at the decay times in the spectrogram. These will give you an idea of what you actually need to treat and you can work out the best way of tackling it. Most panels you can buy won’t really help with the very low end and so much information online is bad. You’ll need thick panels and an air gap behind them. And a cloud is essential really, again 6-8” thick as a minimum. Get those first reflections dealt with, and something like GIK soffits will be your most effective tool for treating the room down to the low end.

Happy to recommend more if you’re interested in going that route.

 

[jellodog]

Can concur that the KH 120's are excellent. They had the edge over Focal's when I did a listening test before buying them. I've had them for many years now.

But as @MirrorProfiles is saying, it's the room and positioning that will affect the sound the most.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Behold the wonders of adjusting speaker position. Green is before, red is after moving each speaker 15cm more centrally.

and the spectrogram. Shit loads going on at 20-30Hz which I cant really do much about. From 50hz and up its pretty consistent

L and R differences are just from the measurement mic not being 100% central
.

 

[Jarick]

@MirrorProfiles how do you best position the speakers to avoid room nodes? Are you using white or pink noise with REW to measure?

It’s funny because I’ve measured my speakers a bunch and moved them and my desk around and done all kinds of things to try and optimize the sound and every time I move them it seems like they get worse

The thing with my room I can’t figure out is that I have a big sliding double door on one side of the long walls. Anywhere logically I’d want to put speakers is going to have issues.

Thats where I think smaller speaker placed close to the wall and with close listening position may be best, to have more sound coming from the speakers and less from the walls.

One thing I haven’t tried is monitors with front facing ports like the Focals or Adams. I know the Kalis are front facing as well but those things are almost the size of my HS8s and I’m suspicious of their quality and noise.

The KH120 sounded a lot like a bigger version of my 8020s…I know the 8030s have a great rep too. Maybe worth trying those if I sell my 8020s first. I wish the Genelec subs weren’t so expensive.

But yeah at some point I think I just pick something good and really put the time and money into getting the best positioning and treatment, and doing more with EQ.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

@MirrorProfiles how do you best position the speakers to avoid room nodes?

if you first use the AMROC room mode calculator it’ll give you some clues on what to be aware of. Maybe not to the exact frequency but enough to see which dips/peaks are (at least partly) modal.

Room EQ Wizard’s room simulator is really handy just to get an idea of roughly where in the room will work. Positioning the speakers as close as possible to a wall is almost always advisable too, so that can narrow options down a bit. SBIR and floor bounce are basically always going to be an issue and going against the wall is sort of a cheap way minimising it (there are some SBIR and floor bounce calculators online too that can help pinpoint which dips are caused by those).

From there it’s really just about measuring and moving the mic forward and back and just seeing what happens. Same goes for adjusting height.

And of course, always be sure to listen and make sure it sounds right to you.

 

[Jarick]

if you first use the AMROC room mode calculator it’ll give you some clues on what to be aware of. Maybe not to the exact frequency but enough to see which dips/peaks are (at least partly) modal.

Room EQ Wizard’s room simulator is really handy just to get an idea of roughly where in the room will work. Positioning the speakers as close as possible to a wall is almost always advisable too, so that can narrow options down a bit. SBIR and floor bounce are basically always going to be an issue and going against the wall is sort of a cheap way minimising it (there are some SBIR and floor bounce calculators online too that can help pinpoint which dips are caused by those).

From there it’s really just about measuring and moving the mic forward and back and just seeing what happens. Same goes for adjusting height.

And of course, always be sure to listen and make sure it sounds right to you.

Just plugged in my room size and it's extremely close to the peaks I'm seeing in measurements. The real problem areas too are where there's two nodes very close to each other. I'll have to dig around to see next steps, but that's a useful tool. Thanks!

Ended up ordering the Focal Alpha Evo 50's as kind of a last try. They have front firing ports which I'd like to try so it helps with positioning close to walls. They also have a larger enclosure size compared to most 5" speakers which helps them get down to -3 dB at 45 Hz. That's pretty comparable to most 6.5" speakers. I've seen a lot of people say they like them compared to Adams. Can always return them like the T5V's.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The real problem areas too are where there's two nodes very close to each other

what frequencies are they? if you can position things so the problems are spread across different frequencies it’ll help a lot.

Ideally you get them high enough so you can treat them easily with panels, or low enough so you can use a sub to help….

 

[Jarick]

what frequencies are they? if you can position things so the problems are spread across different frequencies it’ll help a lot.

Ideally you get them high enough so you can treat them easily with panels, or low enough so you can use a sub to help….

There's a lot of them!

Peak at 40
Massive dip between 60 and 90
Big peak at 120
Biggest peak at 160
Peak at 350
Dip around 800
Broad peak between 1 to 1.5 k
Dip at 2k

Then it flattens out from there.

I found that the Yamahas have much bigger peaks and dips than the smaller speakers. Not 100% sure why but guessing it has to do with volume, positioning, and maybe the bigger distance between the tweeter and woofer?

Obviously the small monitors won't have much low end. I think if I can get things relatively smooth from 100 Hz on up, I'll be able to add add in a sub and get something reasonable in the low frequencies. I never liked a lot of bass so it would be more for reinforcement than blasting away. But I've seen a lot of before/after where a sub can work some real miracles.

I also think outside positioning, there's some echo going around the room still. I want to add a big rug, move my panels around, add some more bass traps, and maybe add some more diffusion.

Oh, one more thing I want to do is to just put my speakers on stands without a desk or anything, run it into my little interface and laptop, and just go around the room and observe how it sounds in different spots. Seems like a quick way to get a starting point for best sound.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I want to add a big rug, move my panels around, add some more bass traps, and maybe add some more diffusion.

Oh, one more thing I want to do is to just put my speakers on stands without a desk or anything, run it into my little interface and laptop, and just go around the room and observe how it sounds in different spots. Seems like a quick way to get a starting point for best sound.

These are all solid options. Speakers on stands is well worth it. I like ones that are REALLY heavy and sturdy so they aren’t resonating with the speaker. You can find some that you can fill the internal chamber with something heavy that are great. Adjustable ones that are solid cost quite a bit, so if you’re on a budget fixed height ones are a good shout. Alternatively, stacking concrete blocks works very well. If they’re fixed stands, go on the shorter side and then you can raise the height with something beneath the speakers if need be.

If you don’t have a ceiling cloud already, that’ll help a lot. With panels, try and go for 20cm thick rockwool (or similar) with a bit of an air gap. Focus first on all the 1st reflection areas, and then essentially it’s a case of filling up any available space with as deep bass trapping as you can get away with/afford. IMO it’s not really worth using traps less than 16-20cm as they won’t really help the low end, and they’ll take up space/money. IMO, diffusion is similar - it takes up space that you could use for bass traps, and all it does is distort the sound.

If it’s sounding too dead, add some reflective surfaces in the rear end of the room (you want to avoid diffusing the sound as it leaves the speaker so you hear the imaging correctly). I’d also recommend leaving no treatment on the front wall, the speakers will work more efficiently and the ambient sound around you will be livelier.

 

[Jarick]

Thanks for all the input!

I have some of the cheap Proline stands, as well as the Gator desk clamps. I dislike the big floor stands I have because the bottom triangles are massive and can't get close enough to the desk legs. So I wouldn't be opposed to new stands to help position better.